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Yesterday - Bundy Ranch

In this world, it's hard to know what is a genuine issue arising from public sentiment, and what is sorta staged by some sort of "false flag operation", or "rogue agents" or organized psy-ops with political agendas. . . . .

So here's a rule for ya'll. If the folks really are carrying guns, it's less than even odds they are truly grass-roots. They are "false flags" working to explode the tensions, probably cells organized under the FBI or HSA, or whatever. . . .Stay away from them.
 
Well, the Bundys HAVE lost in court a couple times. But this is morphing far beyond a dispute over this mans cattle and grazing rights. This is turning into a resistance against the government. All the grievences, real or imagined, are being fought thru this issue. I have heard the 1st, 2nd, 4th and 10th amendments being brought up.

That really doesn't mean it has been explored to it's fullest extent... all it means is he's tried twice.
 
Because you won't shut up about it.

I've said multiple times, along with PKM, that the Bundy/BLM issue is no longer what this fight is about.

How is it not about homesteading? Clearly there's some big brother oppressive government style shenanigans going on, and the drama llama's can have their day with that.

How is this any different than the herding of the Native Americans on to reservations?
 
In the light of the above, I reserve judgment. . . but here are some stories I know about, reliably. . ..

Some Forest Service personnel in Nevada have been booby-trapped in remote locations. I think there have been fatalities. The FS has illegally destroyed old roads to make land qualify for "wilderness designation". The BLM has done operations like the Bundy raid before, as has the Forest Service. Some of these disputes have resulted in new legislation by Congress imposing oversight on the Federal Agencies.

I think this case has been selected for dramatic purposes, and by the government agencies, to push back. Likely, what is wanted is a whole lot of wild rednecks running around with guns to justify the need for the use of government force.
 
The only time I've actually mentioned the Homestead Act was in response to somebody else who brought it up.

Then you brought it up, and when I respond to it, you reply by saying that it's not the issue. You brought the damn issue up!

The Homestead Act is relevant, but as an example of Congress acting to restrict people rights by actual regulation, where prior to that nobody questioned the right to settle land, or the right to claim grazing range, for that matter.
 
In this world, it's hard to know what is a genuine issue arising from public sentiment, and what is sorta staged by some sort of "false flag operation", or "rogue agents" or organized psy-ops with political agendas. . . . .

So here's a rule for ya'll. If the folks really are carrying guns, it's less than even odds they are truly grass-roots. They are "false flags" working to explode the tensions, probably cells organized under the FBI or HSA, or whatever. . . .Stay away from them.

I think the flip side to this is that there are probably people that would show the bundy's support against the blm because they would like to get hold of public land. If we do ever get rid of the blm I hope Utah keeps most, if not all, of the land public. It is an important resource for ranchers and having access to nature for the regular Joe.

#wideopenspaces
 
The Forest Service and BLM are staffed mostly by ordinary Americans following administrative policies they didn't make up. Some of the expansions of government power over state territory have been enacted by Congress and signed by Presidents, and sustained by Supreme Court Judges. But there is a whole lot of "administrative rules" and "department policies" that don't go through that process at all. In fact, the BLM has it's own police force, armed and trained like a paramilitary organization with an "Us vs. Them" mentality, the mentality of an occupation army seizing hostile territory. The BLM and Forest Service even have their own "Administrative Judges", like many other federal agencies. What this all amounts to is that Federal Agencies act independently of the people of this country, and in the service of a few powerful "elites" who have visions of how best to manage the land and the people, who are in no sense "elected representatives". What we have ion our hands in this country is a whole bunch of little fascist dictatorships with lots of guns on the ground.

Until Congress realizes we won't put up with this kind of government, and the President thinks better about how to "execute" the laws, and until the Judges put their little pinkies out in the wind and realize that we won't tolerate them ignoring fundamental Constitutional provisions for a government held in check and held accountable to the people, this is the real issue of human rights today. This kind of arrogance by government agencies has got to be ended.

The only reason most people put up with it is because our media is in the tank with the elites and the managerial crowd of knowitalls who are all too willing to assert more power than the people should tolerate them having. If more people lived in direct contact with the BLM and FS. . .. and many other fed agencies. . . . they would soon see the pattern I'm talking about. And not very many of you would really want it, if you knew it as it is.

That really doesn't mean it has been explored to it's fullest extent... all it means is he's tried twice.

Amen(s).
 
How is it not about homesteading? Clearly there's some big brother oppressive government style shenanigans going on, and the drama llama's can have their day with that.

How is this any different than the herding of the Native Americans on to reservations?

This fight is being taken over and is turning into a corrupt government v. the people arguement. This land dispute is just one log in that fire.
 
This fight is being taken over and is turning into a corrupt government v. the people arguement. This land dispute is just one log in that fire.

Yep. What I fear most about America is the people are okay with whatever those in control decide are best for them. When the U.S. finally decides to take it WAY too far (and it will happen), we will be asleep and accept our fate and demise as normal course.
 
This fight is being taken over and is turning into a corrupt government v. the people arguement. This land dispute is just one log in that fire.

Everyone wants to paint that picture, and you're gonna have every last Tom, Dick, and Harry running to their side. Some have a point, many are just idiots trying to stick it to the man.

But without a land dispute, there is no visual corrupt government and no need for their "control".
 
Any idea if they've posted the court documents without accessing through the PACER system?
 
Everyone wants to paint that picture, and you're gonna have every last Tom, Dick, and Harry running to their side. Some have a point, many are just idiots trying to stick it to the man.

But without a land dispute, there is no visual corrupt government and no need for their "control".

I agree that the BLM sparked this fire. But this has grown so much beyond that. Just listen to the way the people at the ranch are talking. Not the Bundys themselves but those there to "help" them. I agree on many wanting to stick it to the man, but this is not a normal man v. gov fight anymore. As for visuals of corrupt government take your pic. I'm waiting for them to drop names like "Benghazi", "Fast and Furious", "IRS", "Patriot Act"...

What we essentially have now is 2 armed camps in NV facing off. This is approaching Waco level crazyness. Also it is starting to be picked up by the national media. I have seen articles on Fox, LA Times and Reuters already.
 
This fight is being taken over and is turning into a corrupt government v. the people arguement. This land dispute is just one log in that fire.

Again, you're wrong.

The actions they took in taking the cattle, that's the scary part.

You act like the land doesn't matter, but it does. If they government took it legally, then they have the right to take the cattle (assets) from the rancher who isn't paying the fees to use it. If the rancher owned the land, the government would have to pay him. Since they never paid him, it seems obvious that he never owned the land. Trust me, as a land owner, the government can't just take your land without paying for it, no matter what crazy conspiracy theory you have.

If you think the land taking isn't consequential in this case, then you truly don't understand the case.
 
I agree that the BLM sparked this fire. But this has grown so much beyond that. Just listen to the way the people at the ranch are talking. Not the Bundys themselves but those there to "help" them. I agree on many wanting to stick it to the man, but this is not a normal man v. gov fight anymore. As for visuals of corrupt government take your pic. I'm waiting for them to drop names like "Benghazi", "Fast and Furious", "IRS", "Patriot Act"...

What we essentially have now is 2 armed camps in NV facing off. This is approaching Waco level crazyness. Also it is starting to be picked up by the national media. I have seen articles on Fox, LA Times and Reuters already.

The armed militias are honestly making this look worse for them.

Before, we just had the inept BLM using ruthless force to take things when they could have done it peacefully and easily. We were all mad at them, everybody thought it was inappropriate. Now we have these militia types saying that they're ready to fight. You know what that does? That basically turns turns the average American against their cause.

This is a case of two idiotic groups acting like idiots. If they just let the BLM do this, but bring the media in, it only makes the BLM look bad. Now everybody looks bad, and the people they're claiming to help (the Bundy's), aren't getting helped at all. If anything, they're getting used by these militia types.
 
This has much bigger potential than Waco. Much.+

I pray that doesn't materialize.

Roach makes good points, but I am STILL stuck on WHY the feds started it off the way they did.

I guess you guys would have to see it. It's jaw-dropping. When there only a couple dozen protesters, the feds had ALREADY set up a military camp that lit up the night sky like an NFL stadium (no hyperbole). The entrance lined with a dozen or so auto carrying agents. Helicopters, armored vehicles...

ALL of that PRIOR to any threat from 'helpers' of the Bundy's whatsoever. I can attest that the original cries for help came to document wtf the feds planned to do with all this firepower against the Bundy's.

What could they possibly have been thinking that warrant such a display of power?
 
The armed militias are honestly making this look worse for them.

Before, we just had the inept BLM using ruthless force to take things when they could have done it peacefully and easily. We were all mad at them, everybody thought it was inappropriate. Now we have these militia types saying that they're ready to fight. You know what that does? That basically turns turns the average American against their cause.

This is a case of two idiotic groups acting like idiots. If they just let the BLM do this, but bring the media in, it only makes the BLM look bad. Now everybody looks bad, and the people they're claiming to help (the Bundy's), aren't getting helped at all. If anything, they're getting used by these militia types.

Agree to this whole-heartedly. It's diluting the message big time.

It's not all wackos though.. myself for one.
 
Again, you're wrong.

The actions they took in taking the cattle, that's the scary part.

You act like the land doesn't matter, but it does. If they government took it legally, then they have the right to take the cattle (assets) from the rancher who isn't paying the fees to use it. If the rancher owned the land, the government would have to pay him. Since they never paid him, it seems obvious that he never owned the land. Trust me, as a land owner, the government can't just take your land without paying for it, no matter what crazy conspiracy theory you have.

If you think the land taking isn't consequential in this case, then you truly don't understand the case.

It does matter. I just think that this fight has moved beyond that for the people on the ground "fighting" it. I base this off of listening to the people supporting the Bundys.

If you cannot hear that then you do not understand the people IN this case.
 
This has much bigger potential than Waco. Much.+

I pray that doesn't materialize.

Roach makes good points, but I am STILL stuck on WHY the feds started it off the way they did.

I guess you guys would have to see it. It's jaw-dropping. When there only a couple dozen protesters, the feds had ALREADY set up a military camp that lit up the night sky like an NFL stadium (no hyperbole). The entrance lined with a dozen or so auto carrying agents. Helicopters, armored vehicles...

ALL of that PRIOR to any threat from 'helpers' of the Bundy's whatsoever. I can attest that the original cries for help came to document wtf the feds planned to do with all this firepower against the Bundy's.

What could they possibly have been thinking that warrant such a display of power?

Honestly, they probably brought so much force just because they can. After 911 America flipped the **** out and turned every government agency into a CIA hybrid. If an agency has military hardware eventually it will probably get some use if for no other reason than to justify them having it.
 
I would love to hear other's theories on this.. it's really eating at me to figure it out.

I have heard;

1) To show strength and make sure "we" are under submission.
2) That it's really about oil.
3) a couple other seemingly outlandish things..

None of them really add up to me, except maybe #1. If it were oil or something, why not just arrest immediately? Only reason I can see for unnecessary use and display of power is sending a message. The longer this unnecessarily drags on the more attention it gets, the more people see standing against the government is futile.

Still, though... something is gnawing at me.... why?

How about Occam's Razor? A bunch of rednecks from the dusty sticks have a long history of not obeying the law, fighting against the law, and threatening violence against those that have to uphold the laws that are being broken. If that's the case, you better believe that (assuming I'm in charge of things) I'm not going to send one or two men out there by themselves to try and serve this guys punishment. There is no conspiracy here, folks, just a regular enforcement issue that has been escalating for years and years. This didn't just happen overnight, it has been working up to this point for decades.

The Forest Service and BLM are staffed mostly by ordinary Americans following administrative policies they didn't make up. Some of the expansions of government power over state territory have been enacted by Congress and signed by Presidents, and sustained by Supreme Court Judges. But there is a whole lot of "administrative rules" and "department policies" that don't go through that process at all. In fact, the BLM has it's own police force, armed and trained like a paramilitary organization with an "Us vs. Them" mentality, the mentality of an occupation army seizing hostile territory. The BLM and Forest Service even have their own "Administrative Judges", like many other federal agencies. What this all amounts to is that Federal Agencies act independently of the people of this country, and in the service of a few powerful "elites" who have visions of how best to manage the land and the people, who are in no sense "elected representatives". What we have ion our hands in this country is a whole bunch of little fascist dictatorships with lots of guns on the ground.

Until Congress realizes we won't put up with this kind of government, and the President thinks better about how to "execute" the laws, and until the Judges put their little pinkies out in the wind and realize that we won't tolerate them ignoring fundamental Constitutional provisions for a government held in check and held accountable to the people, this is the real issue of human rights today. This kind of arrogance by government agencies has got to be ended.

The only reason most people put up with it is because our media is in the tank with the elites and the managerial crowd of knowitalls who are all too willing to assert more power than the people should tolerate them having. If more people lived in direct contact with the BLM and FS. . .. and many other fed agencies. . . . they would soon see the pattern I'm talking about. And not very many of you would really want it, if you knew it as it is.

The saddest thing about what you just said (besides the fact that you buy into all of the "secret agenda" ********) is that you blame the government and the judges for what is going on, or for what you perceive is going on. News flash for all of you government haters, it is your vote, or more likely, your lack of a vote, that put all of these bad guys in the positions of power. Everyone is super quick to blame everyone or anything related to the government, but those same people will balk like Dwight Gooden with a man on third if you bring up actually "getting involved".

In this world, it's hard to know what is a genuine issue arising from public sentiment, and what is sorta staged by some sort of "false flag operation", or "rogue agents" or organized psy-ops with political agendas. . . . .

So here's a rule for ya'll. If the folks really are carrying guns, it's less than even odds they are truly grass-roots. They are "false flags" working to explode the tensions, probably cells organized under the FBI or HSA, or whatever. . . .Stay away from them.
Ugh, seriously? I love watching conspiracy videos on YouTube. I love watching all of the conspiracy stuff that has been flooding my TV for the last few years. It's entertaining and thought provoking, but it's also ********. Again, Occam's Razor.

Yep. What I fear most about America is the people are okay with whatever those in control decide are best for them. When the U.S. finally decides to take it WAY too far (and it will happen), we will be asleep and accept our fate and demise as normal course.
Well, duh. The People voted for those people, so I think your assumption is safe. As for the government taking things too far, well, again we will have nobody to blame but ourselves. The real problem, in my humble opinion, isn't the people that will be "asleep", it is actually the people who are AWAKE and choose not to get involved that will be the downfall of America. We all type a mean post from the comfort of our favorite computer chair, but we'll be damned if we lift a finger to help get good people elected.*

*PKM doesn't fall into this category, obviously. Just need to clear that up because it reads like I'm attacking him.
 
Agree to this whole-heartedly. It's diluting the message big time.

It's not all wackos though.. myself for one.

I also agree and I think it continues to get worse. Today, it's still early, is a day that is supposed to be a big rallying time for militia members at the Bundy ranch. Some people have estimate that up to 5,000 will show up. Now I seriously doubt that but even if 2-300 show up all it takes is one happy trigger finger by a federal agent or militia member and this thing goes hot.

Also at what point does the fed increase their response to keep pace with the growing resistance's response? Does the FBI get involved? Perhaps the national guard get called out? B ut NV has a republican governor that has already expressed sympathy for the protestors. If he calls out the National Guard does he do so for the BLM or the protestors?

Edit: SOmething else that surprises me is that no agency/official seems to be leading a sit down to talk about this and resolve it peacefully. No one seems to want to get involved in a way to reduce tension. All I see is two sides ratcheting up the pressure on each other with everyone else just stadnign around them watching it happen. When does someone step in and who should that be?
 
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