For all the haters and boo birds...

[fishonjazz]

A phone is out in his face and he’s asked for comment. How many times have any of us carefully read a thread, responded, but still edited? It’s important to understand the context in which the comment came from.

Good point

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[fishonjazz]

I think booing the home team is controversial because it's a more imprecise form of communication than most (even while we often feel like it's rather precise when/if we're doing it).

(Sorry for the long post, and to get my own view out of the way: I generally don't boo and don't really think that it's a good/healthy part of sports culture. But I'd strongly recommend that athletes try have thick skin about it because it's a common form of sports culture; it's not likely to disappear anytime soon.)

Booing can mean many different things, so the likelihood of a mismatch between the boo-er and the object of boos is quite high. And the context matters: as some have noted, it typically means something different to boo the opposing team, a single player, the refs, and the home team generally.

Some possible (sometimes overlapping) meanings for booing the home team (you might think about your own justification if you defend booing: I'm booing because ? ):
- F--- you! (I'd flip you off if I thought you could see it)
- You're performing badly
- Your effort is terrible!
- Wake up! (you're in danger of a bad result if you don't turn things around/find more focus)
- I hate you!
- You've betrayed me! I want revenge!
- You're making me miserable! You deserve the same.
- You're worthless!
- You deserve tough love (I'm punishing you because I love you so much; or since positive love isn't working, so let's try negative love)
- I care about this more than you do and you're bitterly disappointing me
- I can only tolerate you when you're pleasing me (your only value is as an extension of my self-pleasure/pride)
- You're trying to cheat me out of what I deserve after having paid so much money (ie, not giving authentic effort)

It wouldn't be surprising if those who boo or defend booing argue that booing the home team has the most benign of these possible meanings. But it shouldn't be surprising either (since it's just human nature, I think) if many athletes themselves gravitate toward the meanings that attack their personal worth in their reception of the boos.

Of course different individuals both on the giving and receiving sides will differ in how they interpret the boos. But the fact that some athletes will let the boos roll of their backs easily does not mean that all will or should be expected to (or maybe more precisely, they should not be regarded as weaker or morally inferior if the boos don't roll of their backs easily, in my view). In any case the possibility of mismatches between intention and reception is quite high and is aggravated by the impossibility of ever being able to discuss the meanings together (including the impossibility of a close enough relationship for such a conversation to ever have authentic meaning). The athlete will never actually know why the fans boo.

Wow. That's a fantastic post. I think you nailed it and you make me think about this in a different way and really see other perspectives. That is hard to get people to do and your post did it in a great way.

One of the best posts I have ever seen in jazzfanz.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[Gameface]

A phone is out in his face and he’s asked for comment. How many times have any of us carefully read a thread, responded, but still edited? It’s important to understand the context in which the comment came from.

Point taken

 

[NUMBERICA]

Still, it's no big deal. It's just a boo. Every star player gets booed all the time on the road. Again, it's just part of playing a fun silly game for entertainment sake.

No person’s life’s work and career is a “fun, silly game.”

 

[NUMBERICA]

Could booing just be a form of criticizing them when they are performing poorly at their work?

I get criticized if I perform poorly at my job. I could even be disciplined, suspended, or fired depending on how poorly I do. Am I being dehumanized when I disciplined for sucking at my job?

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

The players have actual bosses. You don’t have tens of thousands watching you do your work, let alone the millions watching elsewhere.

 

[infection]

No person’s life’s work and career is a “fun, silly game.”

I’m not a booing guy and I think it’s stupid. But what about the equivalent of boos the rest of us regular folk face in our employment on a daily basis? What about it? We’re all living with it as a reality of what we do. What’s making these guys so much above us that a couple scattered boos 1-2 times per year is some kind of existential threat?

 

[NUMBERICA]

Are you ok with booing bad calls by the refs?
(I know you will say you are not)

I think many people saying we shouldn't boo the players and that booing is stupid would probably boo the refs.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

I think opposing players and referees know that’s coming and understand it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone say all booing is bad, but the argument for booing one’s own team distills down to two things:
-‘they are paid enough/we pay them to take our verbal and psychological abuse’
-‘they need us to hold them accountable->our passion drives their success->this is about me’

Under all of this is the belief that players are property and not human beings.

Sorry to over philosophize this. At the end of the day, let’s not be ******, especially not to those we care about.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I’m not a booing guy and I think it’s stupid. But what about the equivalent of boos the rest of us regular folk face in our employment on a daily basis? What about it? We’re all living with it as a reality of what we do. What’s making these guys so much above us that a couple scattered boos 1-2 times per year is some kind of existential threat?

Existential threat?

Does being paid money somehow silence their internal criticisms? Or that they do answer to many actual bosses?

 

[JimLes]

That is also a good point. I was a fan long before any current Jazz player was here and I'll be a fan long after they are all gone. I don't need a player telling me how to be a fan or what to do as a fan. I care more about the Jazz than they do.

I think that's the part players constantly fail to understand. A lot of them weren't really fans of any teams growing up. Or were "fans" like LeBron was a fan of the Yankees, Cowboys, and whatever other teams were winning everything when he was kid. That's not being a fan, that's just being a bitch.

I've talked about this before on the forum in relation to Hayward. Sports fandom is by nature irrational, and it can't just go one way. People who are ecstatic when their team wins are also going to be disappointed when they lose. That's what being a fan is like. If you're not disappointed by losses, you're probably not that excited by wins either and you're a casual. You're a type of person who might have a Jazz t-shirt because it was $3.99 at Walmart and you'd probably tune in if the Jazz were in the Finals. The emotional investment either goes both ways or it doesn't exist, and I find it hypocritical when players revel in the mood during the good times but can't handle the mood during the bad. It all comes from the same place! Our irrational emotional connection to what is really a corporate entity. Or in one word: fandom.

You can't have this without the other side, in this case booing:



It feels like some of these players wish we were all hardcore fans during wins but casuals during losses.

 

[infection]

Existential threat?

Does being paid money somehow silence their internal criticisms? Or that they do answer to many actual bosses?

All of us do. We experience a lot of unfair things. What distinguishes them from us that this is some kind of travesty that we don’t see everywhere else?

 

[Ron Mexico]

No person’s life’s work and career is a “fun, silly game.”

Mine is, and playing a game for a living is. Doesnt mean you don't work at it.

People take this stuff wayyyyy to serious for what it is.

 

[infection]

It feels like some of these players wish we were all hardcore fans during wins but casuals during losses.

Boom.

 

[jimmy eat jazz]

While I like Locke, and consistently support/defend him, his show yesterday went way over the top, was chock full of inanities and, for some reason, annoyed the hell out of me. Cause I was bored last night, I sat down and wrote a response, which I probably won't send, but here's some excerpts:

I am one of those people who groused about the schedule argument. Not because I am dense and can’t grasp the concept that strength of schedule and heavy travel matter in the win-loss column, but because of a perception (valid or not) that members of the Jazz media, and Jazz “apologists” on social media, were pushing the schedule argument as a kind of catch-all explanation, while simultaneously dismissing legitimate fan concerns about such things as structural roster weaknesses, a poor home record (.500 home record is objectively bad for any team with high playoff aspirations), poor shooting, defensive slippage, loses to teams missing their best players (including a home shellacking by the Oladipo-less Pacers), worries that Mitchell was struggling relative to expectations, and, of course, Mexico City. It doesn’t help that in your podcast today, you all but called people who are skeptical that the schedule explains 100% of the above stupid. I don’t think that’s what you meant, but I suspect other people interpreted it that way.

You are correct, just because one buys a ticket, it doesn’t entitle him/her to act like a jerk. The argument that buying a ticket = entitlement is just dumb. However, occasional booing of your home team hardly rises to the level of being an “***hole,” as you implied today. Some of those booing probably are ***holes, but some are just regular fans frustrated by poor home team performance that has so far stretched across the entire season. It’s a bit of a stretch to equate all fans who boo the home team to the jerk who abuses the serving staff. (I was at the game last night but didn’t boo. It’s not my style to boo the home team, but neither is it to judge frustrated fans who boo in response to spectacularly bad on-court performance.)


Just because one identifies (even intensely) with a sports team doesn’t mean that this precludes them from expressing public criticism of the team via, say, social media or even booing. The argument that “true fandom” implies unwavering and unconditional support, and thus refraining from any public expression of dissatisfaction, is as silly as the argument that buying a ticket entitles one to act like a jerk.


Booing the home team for poor performance is not necessarily the same as yelling “YOU SUCK” at the players. Fans have limited means to express dissatisfaction with their team’s performance; booing is merely the easiest and most effective means of doing so. A boo is as likely to mean something like “I’m really frustrated at the moment and I expect better performance,” than it is to mean “hey you, yeah you, YOU SUCK.” Players have a legitimate right to expect fans to act civilly and to refrain from mean-spirited personal attacks; they don’t have a legitimate right to expect fans to refrain from expressing public criticism of their performance. My clients have the right to criticize my performance if they think I’m not doing a good job. I may not like it or feel it’s justified, but I acknowledge their right, and I deal with it. Professional athletes are no different and have no reason to expect immunity from “client” criticism, as much as they may not like it. Obviously, there’s a line here somewhere, and many fans do cross it, but merely engaging in occasional booing is not, in my opinion, near to crossing this line.


I find people who lecture others on how “true fans” should behave tedious. I experience fandom in my own way and am content to let others do the same. There’s no such thing as a true fan or true fan behavior. Again, there’s lines one can cross, but just because someone does something you would not do, it doesn’t necessarily make this person any less a fan than you are.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I just think we should be the least-****** we can be. I think booing your own team is ******. Everything else is noise and it’s really, really simple.

 

[infection]

While I like Locke, and consistently support/defend him, his show yesterday went way over the top, was chock full of inanities and, for some reason, annoyed the hell out of me. Cause I was bored last night, I sat down and wrote a response, which I probably won't send, but here's some excerpts:

I am one of those people who groused about the schedule argument. Not because I am dense and can’t grasp the concept that strength of schedule and heavy travel matter in the win-loss column, but because of a perception (valid or not) that members of the Jazz media, and Jazz “apologists” on social media, were pushing the schedule argument as a kind of catch-all explanation, while simultaneously dismissing legitimate fan concerns about such things as structural roster weaknesses, a poor home record (.500 home record is objectively bad for any team with high playoff aspirations), poor shooting, defensive slippage, loses to teams missing their best players (including a home shellacking by the Oladipo-less Pacers), worries that Mitchell was struggling relative to expectations, and, of course, Mexico City. It doesn’t help that in your podcast today, you all but called people who are skeptical that the schedule explains 100% of the above stupid. I don’t think that’s what you meant, but I suspect other people interpreted it that way.

You are correct, just because one buys a ticket, it doesn’t entitle him/her to act like a jerk. The argument that buying a ticket = entitlement is just dumb. However, occasional booing of your home team hardly rises to the level of being an “***hole,” as you implied today. Some of those booing probably are ***holes, but some are just regular fans frustrated by poor home team performance that has so far stretched across the entire season. It’s a bit of a stretch to equate all fans who boo the home team to the jerk who abuses the serving staff. (I was at the game last night but didn’t boo. It’s not my style to boo the home team, but neither is it to judge frustrated fans who boo in response to spectacularly bad on-court performance.)


Just because one identifies (even intensely) with a sports team doesn’t mean that this precludes them from expressing public criticism of the team via, say, social media or even booing. The argument that “true fandom” implies unwavering and unconditional support, and thus refraining from any public expression of dissatisfaction, is as silly as the argument that buying a ticket entitles one to act like a jerk.


Booing the home team for poor performance is not necessarily the same as yelling “YOU SUCK” at the players. Fans have limited means to express dissatisfaction with their team’s performance; booing is merely the easiest and most effective means of doing so. A boo is as likely to mean something like “I’m really frustrated at the moment and I expect better performance,” than it is to mean “hey you, yeah you, YOU SUCK.” Players have a legitimate right to expect fans to act civilly and to refrain from mean-spirited personal attacks; they don’t have a legitimate right to expect fans to refrain from expressing public criticism of their performance. My clients have the right to criticize my performance if they think I’m not doing a good job. I may not like it or feel it’s justified, but I acknowledge their right, and I deal with it. Professional athletes are no different and have no reason to expect immunity from “client” criticism, as much as they may not like it. Obviously, there’s a line here somewhere, and many fans do cross it, but merely engaging in occasional booing is not, in my opinion, near to crossing this line.


I find people who lecture others on how “true fans” should behave tedious. I experience fandom in my own way and am content to let others do the same. There’s no such thing as a true fan or true fan behavior. Again, there’s lines one can cross, but just because someone does something you would not do, it doesn’t necessarily make this person any less a fan than you are.

It’s a good response. People are so offended because they take such a black and white view of this.

 

[infection]

I just think we should be the least-****** we can be. I think booing your own team is ******. Everything else is noise and it’s really, really simple.

Most all of us agree with that. It’s not mutually exclusive to hold beliefs that both booing and being upset by booing are stupid.

 

[candrew]

I think the rejection of the strength of schedule argument is the manifestation of the cold hard reality that The Jazz are just not as good as many people hoped they'd be.

Suffice to say not many teams go under .500 for a 40 game clip and then go on to win 54-58 games.

 

[fishonjazz]

The players have actual bosses. You don’t have tens of thousands watching you do your work, let alone the millions watching elsewhere.

I have a crapload of bosses though. And very strict measures that are always taken when I don't perform. Players don't perform and there is usually no consequence. Rotations stay the same and salary stays the same etc.


Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

So Hakl doesn’t need to be butt hurt. But he sucks.

Y'all are so naive here. Let me offer a Pearl of little price...

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

Yes, playfully being booed by friends is the same thing as being booed by thousands of strangers. Get ****ing real.

I'm guessing you've been booed off stage one to many times recently.