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Will You Accept the Findings of the Muller Probe?

Will You Accept the Findings of the Muller Probe?


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That bias chart is biased.


Interesting stuff. I get most of my news from NPR, along with BBC, economist, post, times. Don't watch a lot of TV. Get my tabloid stuff from Yahoo. Heh

I don't really admit this to anyone, but I too, read yahoo and have for the better part of 15 years. It's definitely not my news source I use to get informed. haha It's more like, "I'm bored and have some time to surf or I can't sleep" and want to see what's going on. They post a lot of garbage tabloid stuff, but I guess it's interesting enough I keep coming back.

The thing I've noticed with Yahoo is there are a **** ton of racist people who comment on their articles. I suppose this is because a lot of old, white people read this cause it was one of the first internet news sources. Sometimes, I just read the comments and shake my head. It's worse than YouTube comments.
 
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Obviously you all went crazy over the weekend so I can't respond to everything. I do want to follow up on @Joe Bagadonuts question about Ukraine and a couple follow up issues.



The degree to which Ukraine is pro-American, and oriented that way in opposition to Putin, is hard to fully comprehend unless you physically go there. I would literally get in taxis and pay the drivers to do a loop around Kyiv and tell me their opinions about what was happening in the world and in their country. I wandered around on the Maiden (think Times Square for Ukraine) and would just talk to people. This is a dude I met who was raising money for a charity associated with the families of people who died during the Ukrainian revolution. He's holding up his ID so I could verify he was related to an actual victim of violence during the revolution (because I took this VERY seriously).

View attachment 7356

At it's core, the Ukrainian revolution was about a rejection of remaining within the Russian sphere of influence. Although politics everywhere is complicated, the easiest explanation for what "happened" was that the Ukrainian president of the time suddenly took the country off the path to becoming more "Western" and joining NATO/the EU and turned it back towards Russia itself. This was a fundamental betrayal of everything this society had been working towards for decades and it couldn't stand. Notably, the Ukrainian president in question, Yanukovych, worked with Paul Manafort pretty extensively. You might have heard of him.

In the aftermath, Putin invaded Crimea. The question of "Crimean ownership" is complicated. It goes back to the tsarist era, and Crimea was technically "given" to Ukraine while it was still part of the Soviet Union. It was a gift that was symbolic more than anything, no one expected Crimea to "leave" Russia when Ukraine became independent anymore than we would expect the Oklahoma panhandle to leave the United States someday if we reclassified it as part of Texas. The invasion of Crimea, and the follow on conflicts in the Donbass and Donetsk regions, have killed thousands of people and displaced tens of thousands more. My Russian tutor is literally a refugee from this conflict, and she left Mariupol rather than be subjected to periodic shelling. This is a real conflict with existential implications for the entire country of Ukraine, and it goes to something fundamental about Ukrainian identity: are they a distinct people or are they just a subsection of Russia who speak their own dialect.

This is an issue of critical importance there. When the new president was sworn in recently, he was interrupted during his inauguration because he did part of the inaugural address in Russian rather than Ukrainian. Some portions of the political society there see an official address even acknowledging that Russian is an unrecognized de facto language of the country as a threat to Ukraine's sovereignty. So Ukraine is stuck in this frozen conflict with Russia, for years, about its identity. It fights back and does not just cede territory because to do so would threaten the existence of the country itself in the next decade.

Further, you need to understand why Russia wants Ukraine to fail. Domestically, Putin's primary argument against true democracy is that there is a fundamental clash between Slavic character and a democratic form of government. This is why the Kremlin engages in what they refer to as "managed democracy." The outcome is never really in doubt. The election serves to ratify and legitimize a system that will always produce a fixed winner. As long as they promise stability they can maintain this system, which in turn enables a kleptocratic state. The fact that Ukraine is making a real go of an actual democracy, in which an outsider can win the presidency and there is a peaceful transfer of power, threatens Russia's domestic political situation. If real democracy works in Ukraine, culturally as close to Russia as you can imagine, then there's no reason why it couldn't work in Russia too. The existence of a successful Ukraine is a security threat to Putin's regime.

America, during the Obama administration, and the West generally, has been the effective guarantor of Ukraine's security against Russia. The reason Russia has to engage in a proxy war and/or hide its involvement in Eastern Ukraine is because being overt would risk a larger conflict. Without America, Ukraine likely ceases to exist as a state. It gets rolled over and absorbed back into Russia.

That's the (brief) context here. I could tell you a LOT more, including some stuff that's not so favorable for Hillary (I learned some things about how the embassy got built in Kyiv while I was there, it's amazing how much people will tell you if you show up and you're interested), but that's the overall picture. And it's also what you need to understand to get why the "revelations" as you put it being fed to Giuliani are entirely self-serving reporting that favors Russia. The same individuals alleging that Ukraine was in bed with the Democrats are the people who tried to broker a "peace deal" between Russia and the US in which Ukraine's territorial sovereignty could be negotiated away by the US. They are the same people who were involved with the Yanukovych pull of Ukraine away from the EU and the West. And they are the same people who seek to obscure very well documented ties between the Trump campaign and Yanukovych through Manafort. Simply put, they are not Ukrainian patriots, but people who have a vested interest in tearing the state down in favor of Russia.

Giuliani and the GOP either are unaware of this and are grasping onto anything they can find to spin positively. Or, more cynically, they know this and don't care because they profit from it. These are not good faith allegations, and legitimizing them is a betrayal of how much the Ukrainians who are trying to build something there believe in us and trust in us. Acting like the Ukrainians are involved in the "real crime" (as Trump likes to put it) fundamentally destabilizes that entire country, and that's a fellow democracy that we should support. That's what Trump is doing wrong - and it's only about protecting himself.

The entire point of public service, of working on behalf of other people, is that there is a concept above and beyond your personal interests. You subsume what is narrowly best for you for what is in the best interests of the nation and the world. These ridiculous self-serving accusations about Ukraine go the opposite direction - it's societal level destruction for some cheap points on twitters.




Call me when there's any events uncovered that happened before George Papadopoulos drunkenly bragged about Russian dirt to an Australian ambassador. All the conspiracy theories pretend that event didn't occur. It's also in the Mueller report that this was the first event that caused an investigation - before anything involving the Steele Dossiet.



I'm going to assert, and hope you will trust me, that I've followed the Russia investigation more closely than 99% of the American population. Let me tell you that I'm absolutely convinced that Russian "collusion" occurred but that it's difficult for virtually everyone to keep all the names and players straight.

I already spent a LONG time writing about this today above but if you're interested I'll walk you through some Russian language materials that I'm pretty sure establish the exact chain of communication from Trump/Manafort to Putin himself - complete with video of the various players talking about the American election on a yacht in the Black Sea.



Collusion is not a legal concept. Needless to say the investigation produced dozens of indictments, including of the National Security Advisor and the President's campaign manager. I often wonder how this story would have been covered if Mueller indicted no one until the last week and then indicted everyone all at once.

Damn, Kicky you got get with the times. If you're going to post something like this, you better be giving a: TL;DR version of it too.


hehepeepeecaca
 
This is a personal project. Fundamentally, the nature of what happened in 2016 really struck me personally and I decided that I needed to have a better grasp on what was happening in Russia/Eastern Europe to really grasp what was happening in the world generally.

If you're interested in why I started doing this and some of the big lessons I've taken from it about how Americans and Russians perceive the world differently, I did a sermon at a Unitarian Universalist church on the topic a couple months ago.



I'm a simple man. I see Kicky, I click.
 
@sirkickyass: Does George Papadopoulos drunkenly bragging about Russian dirt to an Australian ambassador (or anyone else) hold as evidence of collusion or conspiracy with Russia?

You seem to have been confused. The Papadopoulos braggadocio was offered as evidence that there will be no charges from Barr's investigation of the FBI investigation in 2016, not as evidence of Russian dirt.
 
Thanks for sharing, I enjoyed your sermon a lot.

I saw this post and then tried to catch up on the thread's comments. I see Kicky's book comment and assumed that's what you meant by sermon. Then I keep reading and, lo and behold, Kicky posts a video of him giving a legit sermon. I have it playing in my other tab and can't help but feel a sense of pride that I know that dude (from here.) Good guy.
 
Obviously you all went crazy over the weekend so I can't respond to everything. I do want to follow up on @Joe Bagadonuts question about Ukraine and a couple follow up issues.



The degree to which Ukraine is pro-American, and oriented that way in opposition to Putin, is hard to fully comprehend unless you physically go there. I would literally get in taxis and pay the drivers to do a loop around Kyiv and tell me their opinions about what was happening in the world and in their country. I wandered around on the Maiden (think Times Square for Ukraine) and would just talk to people. This is a dude I met who was raising money for a charity associated with the families of people who died during the Ukrainian revolution. He's holding up his ID so I could verify he was related to an actual victim of violence during the revolution (because I took this VERY seriously).

View attachment 7356

At it's core, the Ukrainian revolution was about a rejection of remaining within the Russian sphere of influence. Although politics everywhere is complicated, the easiest explanation for what "happened" was that the Ukrainian president of the time suddenly took the country off the path to becoming more "Western" and joining NATO/the EU and turned it back towards Russia itself. This was a fundamental betrayal of everything this society had been working towards for decades and it couldn't stand. Notably, the Ukrainian president in question, Yanukovych, worked with Paul Manafort pretty extensively. You might have heard of him.

In the aftermath, Putin invaded Crimea. The question of "Crimean ownership" is complicated. It goes back to the tsarist era, and Crimea was technically "given" to Ukraine while it was still part of the Soviet Union. It was a gift that was symbolic more than anything, no one expected Crimea to "leave" Russia when Ukraine became independent anymore than we would expect the Oklahoma panhandle to leave the United States someday if we reclassified it as part of Texas. The invasion of Crimea, and the follow on conflicts in the Donbass and Donetsk regions, have killed thousands of people and displaced tens of thousands more. My Russian tutor is literally a refugee from this conflict, and she left Mariupol rather than be subjected to periodic shelling. This is a real conflict with existential implications for the entire country of Ukraine, and it goes to something fundamental about Ukrainian identity: are they a distinct people or are they just a subsection of Russia who speak their own dialect.

This is an issue of critical importance there. When the new president was sworn in recently, he was interrupted during his inauguration because he did part of the inaugural address in Russian rather than Ukrainian. Some portions of the political society there see an official address even acknowledging that Russian is an unrecognized de facto language of the country as a threat to Ukraine's sovereignty. So Ukraine is stuck in this frozen conflict with Russia, for years, about its identity. It fights back and does not just cede territory because to do so would threaten the existence of the country itself in the next decade.

Further, you need to understand why Russia wants Ukraine to fail. Domestically, Putin's primary argument against true democracy is that there is a fundamental clash between Slavic character and a democratic form of government. This is why the Kremlin engages in what they refer to as "managed democracy." The outcome is never really in doubt. The election serves to ratify and legitimize a system that will always produce a fixed winner. As long as they promise stability they can maintain this system, which in turn enables a kleptocratic state. The fact that Ukraine is making a real go of an actual democracy, in which an outsider can win the presidency and there is a peaceful transfer of power, threatens Russia's domestic political situation. If real democracy works in Ukraine, culturally as close to Russia as you can imagine, then there's no reason why it couldn't work in Russia too. The existence of a successful Ukraine is a security threat to Putin's regime.

America, during the Obama administration, and the West generally, has been the effective guarantor of Ukraine's security against Russia. The reason Russia has to engage in a proxy war and/or hide its involvement in Eastern Ukraine is because being overt would risk a larger conflict. Without America, Ukraine likely ceases to exist as a state. It gets rolled over and absorbed back into Russia.

That's the (brief) context here. I could tell you a LOT more, including some stuff that's not so favorable for Hillary (I learned some things about how the embassy got built in Kyiv while I was there, it's amazing how much people will tell you if you show up and you're interested), but that's the overall picture. And it's also what you need to understand to get why the "revelations" as you put it being fed to Giuliani are entirely self-serving reporting that favors Russia. The same individuals alleging that Ukraine was in bed with the Democrats are the people who tried to broker a "peace deal" between Russia and the US in which Ukraine's territorial sovereignty could be negotiated away by the US. They are the same people who were involved with the Yanukovych pull of Ukraine away from the EU and the West. And they are the same people who seek to obscure very well documented ties between the Trump campaign and Yanukovych through Manafort. Simply put, they are not Ukrainian patriots, but people who have a vested interest in tearing the state down in favor of Russia.

Giuliani and the GOP either are unaware of this and are grasping onto anything they can find to spin positively. Or, more cynically, they know this and don't care because they profit from it. These are not good faith allegations, and legitimizing them is a betrayal of how much the Ukrainians who are trying to build something there believe in us and trust in us. Acting like the Ukrainians are involved in the "real crime" (as Trump likes to put it) fundamentally destabilizes that entire country, and that's a fellow democracy that we should support. That's what Trump is doing wrong - and it's only about protecting himself.

The entire point of public service, of working on behalf of other people, is that there is a concept above and beyond your personal interests. You subsume what is narrowly best for you for what is in the best interests of the nation and the world. These ridiculous self-serving accusations about Ukraine go the opposite direction - it's societal level destruction for some cheap points on twitters.




Call me when there's any events uncovered that happened before George Papadopoulos drunkenly bragged about Russian dirt to an Australian ambassador. All the conspiracy theories pretend that event didn't occur. It's also in the Mueller report that this was the first event that caused an investigation - before anything involving the Steele Dossiet.



I'm going to assert, and hope you will trust me, that I've followed the Russia investigation more closely than 99% of the American population. Let me tell you that I'm absolutely convinced that Russian "collusion" occurred but that it's difficult for virtually everyone to keep all the names and players straight.

I already spent a LONG time writing about this today above but if you're interested I'll walk you through some Russian language materials that I'm pretty sure establish the exact chain of communication from Trump/Manafort to Putin himself - complete with video of the various players talking about the American election on a yacht in the Black Sea.



Collusion is not a legal concept. Needless to say the investigation produced dozens of indictments, including of the National Security Advisor and the President's campaign manager. I often wonder how this story would have been covered if Mueller indicted no one until the last week and then indicted everyone all at once.
Your description of the Ukraine situation is interesting and very similar to my experiences in Prague shortly after the wall came down. Everyone wanted to talk about their experiences. Everyone loved America. We lodged in a makeshift bed and breakfast where we stayed up until 2 AM every night talking to the owners and their friends about what they'd been through and their dreams for the future. I became less confident in your narrative when you claimed that you know that there was collusion because of information that you've collected that Mueller was apparently unable to. Based on past posts I believe that you are at least as liberally biased as I am conservatively biased, so the fact that your ultimate conclusions favor the liberal narrative is not at all surprising to me.
 
@sirkickyass: Does George Papadopoulos drunkenly bragging about Russian dirt to an Australian ambassador (or anyone else) hold as evidence of collusion or conspiracy with Russia?

Is there something unique about the dirt the Russians had and the way the Trump campaign was involved to leverage it?

A couple of things here:

First, you're moving the goalposts. Your claim was that some deep conspiracy against Trump was going to be unleashed that pointed the finger at Comey et al as the genesis of the Russia investigation. My point was that the inciting event is clearly defined: it's Papadopoulos talking to the Australian's while plastered. I don't have to win that collusion actually existed (although it did) in order to demonstrate that Papadopoulos is the "first in time" event that starts the investigation. The entire conspiracy theory involving corrupt motives falls apart when you just put the events on a linear timeline.

Second, the answer to the question your are asking is pretty clearly yes.

The Trump campaign's foreign policy team was pretty lightly staffed. Papadopoulos was plainly involved at a pretty high level. Trump himself tweeted a photo of Papadopoulos at a high level meeting with Trump on foreign policy.

upload_2019-5-28_13-58-27.png

So the drunken blurting story is about 1) a high level trump foreign policy advisor; 2) with specific knowledge about the Russian hacking of the DNC and its contents; and 3) advance knowledge that the information would be used to Trump's benefit.

It doesn't take a genius to figure out why that looks collusive and why it triggered an investigation.

Damn, Kicky you got get with the times. If you're going to post something like this, you better be giving a: TL;DR version of it too.

That WAS the TL;DR! If you want the FULL version we gotta go back to the formation of Russian identity with Yaroslav the Wise. You see, the Mongolian horde was in total control over a series of disparate slavic principalities....

I'm not the only one whose first glance told them this was Disneyland, was I?

Here's the full maiden with the "Disneyland" garden clock in one corner. It's really a pretty cool place. The revolutionary spirit is in the air.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipO0ZcxuiY1kYYf5pSz4irX6amevU70g9m3yDvem
 
I became less confident in your narrative when you claimed that you know that there was collusion because of information that you've collected that Mueller was apparently unable to. Based on past posts I believe that you are at least as liberally biased as I am conservatively biased, so the fact that your ultimate conclusions favor the liberal narrative is not at all surprising to me.

The Mueller report is nearly 450 pages long, and portions of it that are related to counterintelligence have been blacked out. I'm not certain the pieces of information I'm referring to were totally ignored by Mueller, all I know is that there are certain names I would expect to see in a full counterintelligence investigation that are not listed. We do know that there's a parallel counterintelligence investigation that has occurred (and the day we see the Counterintelligence file on Trump is sure to be something interesting) and it's possible that information was handled outside of the narrow context of a conspiracy analysis.

For example here's an English translation from a (very good) Russian newspaper about one of the key figures in any informed collusion story: Sergey Prikhodko. This guy is totally absent in the public version of the Mueller report.

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2018/02/16/the-man-with-the-golden-shoes

The best version of the "collusion" story runs through intermediaries like Prikhodko and Deripaska. The narrow "Trump campaign/conspiracy/Russian state" doesn't capture that path. It's outside the scope of what Mueller was doing.

There's some other odds and ends that would make this path harder to investigate. One of the key witnesses ended up in a Thai prison under what were clearly politically motivated charges, and wasn't released until she agreed to surrender her tapes of Deripaska talking about the American election. There's practical reasons why Mueller can't go interview her in a third party custody while she's charged with something else, particularly when it's outside the scope of narrowly defined conspiracy.

This is a BIG and complex topic that doesn't lend itself well to soundbite debate. At the end of the day my opinions about what happened with Russia are my own and the product of a LOT of independent work. They aren't derived by reading liberal blogs and you do yourself a disservice by dividing conclusions up into "liberal" and "conservative" that way.
 
For example here's an English translation from a (very good) Russian newspaper about one of the key figures in any informed collusion story: Sergey Prikhodko. This guy is totally absent in the public version of the Mueller report.

For what it's worth, I found his name 4 times in the searchable NY Times version of the report, https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/04/18/us/politics/mueller-report-document.html.

From Vol. 1, pg 78:
Second, like Cohen, Trump received and turned down an invitation to the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum. In late December 2015, Mira Duma — a contact of Ivanka Trump’s from the fashion industry — first passed along invitations for Ivanka Trump and candidate Trump from Sergei Prikhodko, a Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation.377 On January 14, 2016, Rhona Graff sent an email to Duma stating that Trump was “honored to be asked to participate in the highly prestigious” Forum event, but that he would “have to decline” the invitation given his “very grueling and full travel schedule” as a presidential candidate.378 Graff

From Vol. 1, pg 79
It does not appear that Graff prepared that note immediately. According to written answers from President Trump,380 Graff received an email from Deputy Prime Minister Prikhodko on March 17, 2016, again inviting Trump to participate in the 2016 Forum in St. Petersburg.381 Two weeks later, on March 31, 2016, Graff prepared for Trump’s signature a two-paragraph letter declining the invitation.382 The letter stated that Trump’s “schedule has become extremely demanding” because of the presidential campaign, that he “already ha[d] several commitments in the United States” for the time of the Forum, but that he otherwise “would have gladly given every consideration to attending such an important event.”383 Graff forwarded the letter to another executive assistant at the Trump Organization with instructions to print the document on letterhead for Trump to sign.

From Appendix B-9
Prikhodko, Sergei
First deputy head of the Russian Government Office and former Russian deputy prime minister. In January 2016, he invited candidate Trump to the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum.

From Appendix C-22
Response to Question IV, Part (e)
I do not recall being told during the campaign of efforts by Russian officials to meet with me or with senior members of my campaign. In the process of preparing to respond to these questions, I became aware that on March 17, 2016, my assistant at the Trump Organization, Rhona Graff, received an email from a Sergei Prikhodko, who identified himself as Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation, Foundation Roscongress, inviting me to participate in the St. Petersburg International Economic Forum to be held in June 2016. The documents show that Ms. Graff prepared for my signature a brief response declining the invitation. I understand these documents already have been produced to you.
 
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