How white liberals view black voters

[One Brow]

So where do you draw the line? Child rapist? People who commit hate crimes? People with gun charges?

They still have to vote for candidates/referenda. Anyone who's not incarcerated should be able to vote, and I think the incarcerated, as well.

 

[LogGrad98]

Any right is limited and can be removed upon cause. Doesn't mean they don't have the right fundamentally, just that it is suspended. Perhaps that's too fine a point, though.

Yeah that is too fine a point. In that vein you could argue everyone has every right everywhere, they are just suppressed more in some places than in others. Then the dialogue has no weight.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

It's in my truck (with my fishing license) so it's there when I'm driving. Otherwise I never have it.

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In other words you always have it nearby and you definitely know where it is, just like you should and just like almost everyone else does. Not even sure why we're having this discussion.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

It's been studied multiple times, by multiple people. If you think you have a source with a larger, more reliable number, I'll read it.

Here is my study:
If you eliminate barriers to cheating then a larger percentage of the population tends to cheat. Witness the looting that occurs during power outages for example. There is ample video evidence of this phenomena.

For that reason it is not difficult to conclude that if voting is easily manipulated that eventually candidates who are willing to sanction that type of manipulation will emerge. ID is a very reasonable measure to help make this sort of manipulation much more unlikely, especially since having an ID is a useful and ordinary thing that every adult ought to do.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

How many people advocate for being able to vote by showing up and having a pulse? I think this is a tiny tiny minority of people, if that. The problems are too few to begin listing.

The "zero ID" argument is a straw man, in my opinion.

Hear that One Brow? You are a straw man.

 

[silesian]

Here is my study:
If you eliminate barriers to cheating then a larger percentage of the population tends to cheat. Witness the looting that occurs during power outages for example. There is ample video evidence of this phenomena.

For that reason it is not difficult to conclude that if voting is easily manipulated that eventually candidates who are willing to sanction that type of manipulation will emerge. ID is a very reasonable measure to help make this sort of manipulation much more unlikely, especially since having an ID is a useful and ordinary thing that every adult ought to do.

Anecdotes and analogies are nice and all but they are certainly not studies nor are they particularly compelling.

Which measures are you referring to? Do you have any evidence that they stop cheating?

They are designed to suppress the vote so I doubt they incidentally also stop cheating.

 

[JazzyFresh]

No ID seems far more oppressive/suppressive to me. No ID most likely means no job unless illegal jobs, no job equals no money, no money equals poverty.

 

[Joe Bagadonuts]

Anecdotes and analogies are nice and all but they are certainly not studies nor are they particularly compelling.

Which measures are you referring to? Do you have any evidence that they stop cheating?

They are designed to suppress the vote so I doubt they incidentally also stop cheating.

This conversation with you is extremely nonsensical since you have verified that we both agree that ID should be required to vote and we both agree that it should be easy to obtain. My comment was directed toward a guy who disagrees with both of us. He says that ID should not be required.

 

[fishonjazz]

In other words you always have it nearby and you definitely know where it is, just like you should and just like almost everyone else does. Not even sure why we're having this discussion.

I said I don't usually have it on my person. And that I almost never need it. (Which is like what was being discussed you know?)
Like when I went to the wedding in Tooele last night my ID was in my truck in my garage at home.


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[Joe Bagadonuts]

I said I don't usually have it on my person. And that I almost never need it. (Which is like what was being discussed you know?)
Like when I went to the wedding in Tooele last night my ID was in my truck in my garage at home.


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I'm sorry. I just don't get your point in the context of this conversation. I've learned an awful lot about your relationship to your ID, though.

 

[fishonjazz]

I'm sorry. I just don't get your point in the context of this conversation. I've learned an awful lot about your relationship to your ID, though.

You would have to go back and read at the point when I started posting to understand. I don't blame ya if ya don't though.
The gist is that someone was saying that you need your id on your person all the time for all sorts of things.
I simply explained that isn't true. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less

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[Stoked]

They still have to vote for candidates/referenda. Anyone who's not incarcerated should be able to vote, and I think the incarcerated, as well.

Incarcerated? I’ll part with you on this issue there. But once their sentence is over there is no justification for restricting this right. None.

 

[One Brow]

Here is my study:
If you eliminate barriers to cheating then a larger percentage of the population tends to cheat. Witness the looting that occurs during power outages for example. There is ample video evidence of this phenomena.

People cheat for gain. What you are saying is that people will cheat to spend what it often more than an hour in line to cast a single vote. That's a lot of time for very little gain.

For that reason it is not difficult to conclude that if voting is easily manipulated that eventually candidates who are willing to sanction that type of manipulation will emerge.

Election fraud is rampant and occurs pretty much every election. Voter impersonation fraud is extremely rare.

ID is a very reasonable measure to help make this sort of manipulation much more unlikely, especially since having an ID is a useful and ordinary thing that every adult ought to do.

Voter ID does nothing to stop election fraud. It's a solution in search of a problem.

 

[One Brow]

Hear that One Brow? You are a straw man.

Having already advocated for three different types of IDs (mailed to voter, signature, and verbal information), your willingness to ignore what I said can only be taken to be sad.

 

[One Brow]

Incarcerated? I’ll part with you on this issue there. But once their sentence is over there is no justification for restricting this right. None.

I think we can reasonably disagree here.

Part of my position comes from how residency is handled for the incarcerated. If a person gets arrested in North St. Louis and incarcerated near Farmington, for the entire period of incarceration their census value (for legislative districting, federal spending, etc.) gets counted toward Farmington, but when they are released, they are forced to return to St. Louis, and none of the benefits of that census value Farmington received go to that felon or the community that needed the benefits. If Farmington get benefits from the presence of an adult citizen, some of that should go to the adult citizen, or the at least that citizen should have a say in it.

 

[Stoked]

I think we can reasonably disagree here.

Part of my position comes from how residency is handled for the incarcerated. If a person gets arrested in North St. Louis and incarcerated near Farmington, for the entire period of incarceration their census value (for legislative districting, federal spending, etc.) gets counted toward Farmington, but when they are released, they are forced to return to St. Louis, and none of the benefits of that census value Farmington received go to that felon or the community that needed the benefits. If Farmington get benefits from the presence of an adult citizen, some of that should go to the adult citizen, or the at least that citizen should have a say in it.

To me the answer lies in prison reform and stopping mass incarceration. Not granting them the right to vote while incarcerated. But yeah, we can certainly reasonably disagree here.

 

[Harambe]

Which I have a problem with. Once their jail time, and probation depending on the crime, is over they should have full voting rights

Let's.... let's correct this right now. Voting IS a right of every citizen. Once you become a felon, you have done something bad enough to have that right suspended. Over a period of time afterwards, you can petition for that right to be resumed.

I'm not sure I like the idea of it being taken away at all. But to argue that it's not a right just doesn't feel appropriate.

 

[Harambe]

Here is my study:
If you eliminate barriers to cheating then a larger percentage of the population tends to cheat. Witness the looting that occurs during power outages for example. There is ample video evidence of this phenomena.

For that reason it is not difficult to conclude that if voting is easily manipulated that eventually candidates who are willing to sanction that type of manipulation will emerge. ID is a very reasonable measure to help make this sort of manipulation much more unlikely, especially since having an ID is a useful and ordinary thing that every adult ought to do.

Your research is astounding. I'm super impressed. Which publication are you going to publish through?

 

[Stoked]

Let's.... let's correct this right now. Voting IS a right of every citizen. Once you become a felon, you have done something bad enough to have that right suspended. Over a period of time afterwards, you can petition for that right to be resumed.

I'm not sure I like the idea of it being taken away at all. But to argue that it's not a right just doesn't feel appropriate.

I never said it wasn’t a right...

I am saying that there shouldn’t be a suspension of that right post sentence.

 

[fishonjazz]

I never said it wasn’t a right...

I am saying that there shouldn’t be a suspension of that right post sentence.

Ya you two are saying the same thing from what i can gather.


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