Are the Jazz going to trade Rudy?

[NAOS]

If we have Favs+Rudy, we should try out what MIL is doing. The are ahead of the rest of the league in their exaggerated, protect the rim scheme. They concede the most 3's, but it doesn't matter because their rim protection and rebounding is so good. As offenses continue to get better, I don't think the Jazz can rely on the "everyone stay home, Rudy defends everything else" strategy that limits both 3's and shots at the rim. It stretches us too thin.

Milwaukee is too unidimensional, though. You have to have some defensive versatility. This catches up to them in the playoffs.

We will be unidimensional, though. Bank on it.

 

[NAOS]

The defense was still good overall. And the last 3 games the Rockets were scoring like the Knicks because we got it figured out. Unfortunately, the Jazz were scoring like the Westchester Knicks so we still lost. It could not be more obvious why we lost against HOU twice...we couldn't score. I'm not here to put heat on Mitchell, he was asked to do too much...but it amazes me how he got away unscathed after having one of the worst playoff performances of all time.

My point is that Rudy catches all the blame. I know the truth of what happened is more nuanced than that.

 

[KqWIN]

Milwaukee is too unidimensional, though. You have to have some defensive versatility. This catches up to them in the playoffs.

We will be unidimensional, though. Bank on it.

I'd say the Bucks offense catches up to them in the playoffs more than their defense, but I definitely agree that we're too unidimensional. Quin very rarely deviates from our basic defense. What makes the problem worse is that our basic defense asks so little of everyone else besides Rudy. When it comes time for them to do more and do something else besides stay home, they have no awareness because it hasn't been practiced.

I've been hoping that Quin will add some versatility to our schemes for years even if it costs us a few regular season W's, but it hasn't happened. Like you, I'd be shocked if Quin tries to expand our defensive schemes.

 

[NAOS]

I'd say the Bucks offense catches up to them in the playoffs more than their defense, but I definitely agree that we're too unidimensional. Quin very rarely deviates from our basic defense. What makes the problem worse is that our basic defense asks so little of everyone else besides Rudy. When it comes time for them to do more and do something else besides stay home, they have no awareness because it hasn't been practiced.

I've been hoping that Quin will add some versatility to our schemes for years even if it costs us a few regular season W's, but it hasn't happened. Like you, I'd be shocked if Quin tries to expand our defensive schemes.

I’d put the Bucks’ unidimensional defense waaaaaaaay before their offense on the list of their problems. It isn’t even close. And they have the tools to be one of the most diverse defenses. This is Bud’s biggest problem.

 

[infection]

Additionally, Dok can catch a damn lob starting day one and stay on the floor as a lone big, if needed, just because of that.

Cool, so what you're saying is that if we were running with him, then we'd only really need a minimum guy. That's great. It means it gives us flexibility to not spend $10M on another backup center.

I would also be curious where this idea is that Ekpe was playing with Favors and that's why he looked good on defense. Can anyone actually look up that lineup data? I don't ever recall him playing with Favors. He certainly didn't share the floor with him during his last year.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Cool, so what you're saying is that if we were running with him, then we'd only really need a minimum guy. That's great. It means it gives us flexibility to not spend $10M on another backup center.

I would also be curious where this idea is that Ekpe was playing with Favors and that's why he looked good on defense. Can anyone actually look up that lineup data? I don't ever recall him playing with Favors. He certainly didn't share the floor with him during his last year.

It doesn’t just have to be about Udoh... there were many guys we could have signed for the minimum as a stop gap option.

Im fine with Favors in a vacuum. It’s the drafting of a guy to put behind Favs that makes sense and all the nickel and dime-ing they are doing to duck the tax because they paid Favs. They also have a guy in Morgan that they like and see as a backup 5 option. The Favs deal makes us better but it will need to be moved or we need to reconfigure other salary to accommodate it next year or two.

It’s really just poor logic behind the roster design. It’s a really strange offseason.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

And honestly I’m happy we brought back Favs but not if we get cheap about Rudy or if we go to extremes to avoid the tax that hurt other areas of the roster or asset base.

 

[framer]

Cool, so what you're saying is that if we were running with him, then we'd only really need a minimum guy. That's great. It means it gives us flexibility to not spend $10M on another backup center.

I would also be curious where this idea is that Ekpe was playing with Favors and that's why he looked good on defense. Can anyone actually look up that lineup data? I don't ever recall him playing with Favors. He certainly didn't share the floor with him during his last year.

No, Dok is third string, as was Udoh. Dok is a much better 3rd string at a better price (but not cap hit) than Udoh with exponentially more upside.

As far as playing with Favors, I don't know the number. I just know when Udoh was our primary big we just sucked and hemorrhaged until we got Favs or Rudy back in. He never held down the spot solo when he was in.

 

[infection]

No, Dok is third string, as was Udoh. Dok is a much better 3rd string at a better price (but not cap hit) than Udoh with exponentially more upside.

As far as playing with Favors, I don't know the number. I just know when Udoh was our primary big we just sucked and hemorrhaged until we got Favs or Rudy back in. He never held down the spot solo when he was in.

I'm not remembering us hemorrhaging. Anyone else remember this? And I'm trying reconcile two different things you're saying between 1) Udoh looked good because there was someone else on the floor backing him up and 2) we were hemorrhaging until Favors or Rudy got back in. Those two ideas don't seem to lineup,

Also, when you say he "never held down the spot solo when he was in," but acknowledge that perhaps he didn't really play with Favors, who was holding down the spot, Jerebko? Niang?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I'm not remembering us hemorrhaging. Anyone else remember this? And I'm trying reconcile two different things you're saying between 1) Udoh looked good because there was someone else on the floor backing him up and 2) we were hemorrhaging until Favors or Rudy got back in. Those two ideas don't seem to lineup,

Also, when you say he "never held down the spot solo when he was in," but acknowledge that perhaps he didn't really play with Favors, who was holding down the spot, Jerebko? Niang?

All I remember from Udoh is as soon as he came in the game he’d block a shot a player thought they could get off over him.

I remember him sucking when catching the ball too. He was a decent passer though. I think Favs is definitely better. I think he is not 8M better in the 14-15 minutes he gets a night but I don’t care... as long as we don’t cut costs in other ways that hurt the asset base or basketball.

We might get through the season without major injuries or Covid issues so the 14th and 15th spots don’t matter this year.

The thing that has puzzled me is that Mike won’t be back... either because we don’t want his salary or because he wants something different. So why not pivot now and give yourself some flexibility. I think we are kinda sorta all in maybe? If there is some master plan I guess I don’t see .

 

[LoPo]

My point is that Rudy catches all the blame. I know the truth of what happened is more nuanced than that.

This is total bullcrap.

Rudy gets hardly any of the blame. Everybody blames too many defenders and nobody could hit a shot on the losses to Houston. Then last year, they said Rudy didn't have enough help because we let all the defenders go. Nobody is pointing out how Jokic absolutely outplayed Rudy. Nobody points out that Capella gave Rudy fits the 2 years prior.

The narrative is always "Rudy did his job but he didn't have enough help."

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

It’s more of a national narrative but I keep hearing “experts” say Rudy gets played off the floor in the playoffs. It’s completely false.

 

[infection]

This is total bullcrap.

Rudy gets hardly any of the blame. Everybody blames too many defenders and nobody could hit a shot on the losses to Houston. Then last year, they said Rudy didn't have enough help because we let all the defenders go. Nobody is pointing out how Jokic absolutely outplayed Rudy. Nobody points out that Capella gave Rudy fits the 2 years prior.

The narrative is always "Rudy did his job but he didn't have enough help."

Your idea of Capela giving Rudy fits includes Capela getting easy baskets because Rudy had to leave him to guard the guy with the ball because the guy guarding the guy with the ball couldn't guard the guy with the ball. Capela wasn't taking him on post ups or burning him with cross-overs.

 

[infection]

Your idea of Capela giving Rudy fits includes Capela getting easy baskets because Rudy had to leave him to guard the guy with the ball because the guy guarding the guy with the ball couldn't guard the guy with the ball. Capela wasn't taking him on post ups or burning him with cross-overs.

Oh, and in 2018 Capela scored 10.8 ppg and 10.6 rebounds per game against us in the playoffs (compared to 13.9 ppg and 10.8 rpg regular season) and in 2019 13 ppg and 10.2 rpg (compared to 16.6 ppg and 12.7 rpg regular season).

But yeah, Capela ate his lunch.

 

[LoPo]

Your idea of Capela giving Rudy fits includes Capela getting easy baskets because Rudy had to leave him to guard the guy with the ball because the guy guarding the guy with the ball couldn't guard the guy with the ball. Capela wasn't taking him on post ups or burning him with cross-overs.

This is true. Our approach to Houston, especially year 2, was odd. I do remember that Capella was outplaying Rudy a good bit prior to the strange approach to Harden in the 2019 playoffs.

 

[LoPo]

Oh, and in 2018 Capela scored 10.8 ppg and 10.6 rebounds per game against us in the playoffs (compared to 13.9 ppg and 10.8 rpg regular season) and in 2019 13 ppg and 10.2 rpg (compared to 16.6 ppg and 12.7 rpg regular season).

But yeah, Capela ate his lunch.

Never said he ate his lunch.

One thing you're completely leaving out too is that Houston played PJ Tucker a ton at C against us. Unfortunately, Rudy couldn't make them pay on the other end.

 

[LoPo]

It’s more of a national narrative but I keep hearing “experts” say Rudy gets played off the floor in the playoffs. It’s completely false.

I don't think he gets played off the floor, but he surely doesn't play like a top NBA talent in the playoffs. Regular season - Rudy is a top 20 NBA player in terms of effect on the game. In the playoffs, he doesn't control near as much. If that's the narrative, it's true.

 

[infection]

Never said he ate his lunch.

One thing you're completely leaving out too is that Houston played PJ Tucker a ton at C against us. Unfortunately, Rudy couldn't make them pay on the other end.

I didn't leave that out. You were talking about Capela/Rudy. I'm assuming you bringing up Tucker is your indirect way of saying that what you said about Capela/Rudy was wrong. But I'd have to go back to the game logs to look because I don't think they started to use very many minutes of Tucker as the 5 against Rudy until this year.

 

[LoPo]

I didn't leave that out. You were talking about Capela/Rudy. I'm assuming you bringing up Tucker is your indirect way of saying that what you said about Capela/Rudy was wrong. But I'd have to go back to the game logs to look because I don't think they started to use very many minutes of Tucker as the 5 against Rudy until this year.

No, I brought up Tucker to show that simply showing Capella's stats is dumb. What if Capella had those stats in 8 minutes less per game? You want to post those?

My point still stands. Rudy doesn't dominate in the playoffs. He is very good, but he doesn't dominate. He's not a supermax player. Not on the court and definitely not on the court.

 

[infection]

No, I brought up Tucker to show that simply showing Capella's stats is dumb. What if Capella had those stats in 8 minutes less per game? You want to post those?

My point still stands. Rudy doesn't dominate in the playoffs. He is very good, but he doesn't dominate. He's not a supermax player. Not on the court and definitely not on the court.

Sure, glad you asked:

2018 regular season Capela averaged 27.5 minutes per game, compared to 32.9 minutes per game against us in the playoffs.
2019 regular season Capela averaged 33.6 minutes per game, compared to 31.7 minutes per game against us in the playoffs.

But let me recap this discussion really quick:

KqWIN: We lost against Houston because we couldn't score (post 238).
FAILED STATE: Rudy catches the blame, but it's obviously more nuanced (post 242).
LoPo: Rudy never gets blamed. Everyone blames everyone else. Capela gave Rudy fits (post 251).
infection: Capela didn't give Rudy fits (posts 253 and 254).
LoPo: Houston gave a lot of minutes to PJ Tucker and Rudy couldn't punish him on the other end (post 256).