Do you still want to see Big Al shipped?

[JGolds]

thanks for agreeing have said this all along. i feel bad that millsap looks like the odd man out but honestly he looks like the one leaving. we need three good bigs. al fav and kan are all basiclly interchangeable. and we have to pick either sap or al or we could loose both, and then we will be left looking for a FA to sign to be our other big, and i can honestly say, i liekt he way al looks more then the other bigs in FA.

this post left a bad tast in my mouth, seeing myself choose jefferson logical or not made me sick..

 

[JAZZGASM]

Big Al vexes me. One game he'll hog the ball, slow the offense, sit around on d, etc. The next game he'll be passing to cutters, blocking shots, and being agressive. I've seen progress since he's been with the Jazz, I can see that he has all the tools to be an amazing PF. I've seen him play amazing. But if he doesn't have the desire to do it night in and night out, ship him out. We have two guys in the wings that are hungry.

 

[Purch]

Big Al vexes me. One game he'll hog the ball, slow the offense, sit around on d, etc. The next game he'll be passing to cutters, blocking shots, and being agressive. I've seen progress since he's been with the Jazz, I can see that he has all the tools to be an amazing PF. I've seen him play amazing. But if he doesn't have the desire to do it night in and night out, ship him out. We have two guys in the wings that are hungry.

Imo I think in the recent weeks you're really starting to see the extent of how far AL has progressed as a player since being here. He's a much more willing and improved passer than he was when he got here, he's been much more agressive instead of settling for jumpers (since the new year began), and he actually comes out to defend the pick and roll. When he's agressive you're really starting to see the extent of his footwork

He's not perfect, but he's a much better player than he was when we got him from Minny.

He was only around 24 when we got him if I remember correctly, he's only a month older than Sap.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I love this idea that now, what is it, 8 years into the league that there are STILL people that think Al can sustain the flashes of improvement he's shown or - even better - that he's still a work in progress.

 

[One Brow]

I love this idea that now, what is it, 8 years into the league that there are STILL people that think Al can sustain the flashes of improvement he's shown or - even better - that he's still a work in progress.

I don't think anyone is saying Jefferson is radically transforming his game. However, there's also no indication that he's refusing to improve. I'm learning new skills, methods, and tools at the age of 50, I think Jefferson can do that at 26.

 

[NUMBERICA]

I don't think anyone is saying Jefferson is radically transforming his game. However, there's also no indication that he's refusing to improve. I'm learning new skills, methods, and tools at the age of 50, I think Jefferson can do that at 26.

And I'm doing it at 28. I'm not fundamentally changing who I am, though, and I'm not doing it in an environment of competition, let alone one that is the highest level of it's kind on earth.

 

[Brown Notes]

2010-shows mid range J
2011-learns to share ball
2012-showing ability to play team D, opening up to Hi-Lo entry pass.

Al's improvement is not a myth.

 

[Jazz4ever]

Imo I think in the recent weeks you're really starting to see the extent of how far AL has progressed as a player since being here. He's a much more willing and improved passer than he was when he got here, he's been much more agressive instead of settling for jumpers (since the new year began), and he actually comes out to defend the pick and roll. When he's agressive you're really starting to see the extent of his footwork

He's not perfect, but he's a much better player than he was when we got him from Minny.

He was only around 24 when we got him if I remember correctly, he's only a month older than Sap.

Nah the prime Minny Al was better. That Al played a more physical post up game and would dunk on you. That Al got to the line 5 times a night, which is much closer to how often a first option should be getting. Part of it is was a little zapped athleticism from the ACL, part if it was trying to turn him into Boozer by running the same pick and roll sets (a failed experiment). The only thing I can say for sure that this Al is better at is passing.

 

[theNBAnerd]

he's made nominal progress, but that's about it. there are still a huge number of possessions where the balls never touches anybody's hands except al and the initiator on the strong side wing for most/all of the shot clock. and here's the thing... even if he scores on that play, it's just not good basketball. he's an elite post scorer, but the effect he has on team execution is negative. he uses 22.5 possessions per 40 minutes -- or about 28.6% of the team's possessions -- plus all the ones where he doesn't officially use the play but he dictates what happens because he stops the ball so long that by the time he finally gets rid of it there isn't time to go through the set and run the options so someone winds up shooting a late inefficient shot.

now consider that he gets 1.04 points per shot, or .974 points per possession... both below the team average. why would you let a player that inefficient dictate somewhere around a third of your team's offense?

final thought: if, as a previous poster stated, al/fav/kan are "interchangeable" then isn't keeping all 3 a bad idea? don't you need some versatility? if you have three guys who are a little too undistinguishable, aren't you a ridiculously easy team to prep for and shut down? not to mention that miami just showed the league how to shut down al: front him, ball-deny and, if it comes right down to it, just put a smaller hyperactive defender on him to frustrate him because he doesn't play physical enough to use his size advantage to overpower anybody.

 

[theNBAnerd]

Nah the prime Minny Al was better. That Al played a more physical post up game and would dunk on you. That Al got to the line 5 times a night, which is much closer to how often a first option should be getting. Part of it is was a little zapped athleticism from the ACL, part if it was trying to turn him into Boozer by running the same pick and roll sets (a failed experiment). The only thing I can say for sure that this Al is better at is passing.

huh? when did they put him in a bunch of PnRs? i think they could tell right away he wasn't a great P&R decision-maker so they took him out of that. synergy agrees with me; it has al only acting as the roll man on 8.9% of his overall "used" possessions - less than two plays per game, and usually it's the last resort late in the shot clock.

 

[NUMBERICA]

he's made nominal progress, but that's about it. there are still a huge number of possessions where the balls never touches anybody's hands except al and the initiator on the strong side wing for most/all of the shot clock. and here's the thing... even if he scores on that play, it's just not good basketball. he's an elite post scorer, but the effect he has on team execution is negative. he uses 22.5 possessions per 40 minutes -- or about 28.6% of the team's possessions -- plus all the ones where he doesn't officially use the play but he dictates what happens because he stops the ball so long that by the time he finally gets rid of it there isn't time to go through the set and run the options so someone winds up shooting a late inefficient shot.

now consider that he gets 1.04 points per shot, or .974 points per possession... both below the team average. why would you let a player that inefficient dictate somewhere around a third of your team's offense?

final thought: if, as a previous poster stated, al/fav/kan are "interchangeable" then isn't keeping all 3 a bad idea? don't you need some versatility? if you have three guys who are a little too undistinguishable, aren't you a ridiculously easy team to prep for and shut down? not to mention that miami just showed the league how to shut down al: front him, ball-deny and, if it comes right down to it, just put a smaller hyperactive defender on him to frustrate him because he doesn't play physical enough to use his size advantage to overpower anybody.

Shwing.

 

[Ben10]

huh? when did they put him in a bunch of PnRs? i think they could tell right away he wasn't a great P&R decision-maker so they took him out of that. synergy agrees with me; it has al only acting as the roll man on 8.9% of his overall "used" possessions - less than two plays per game, and usually it's the last resort late in the shot clock.

I think he was talking about when Al first got here and Deron would try to run P&R with him. The Jazz did it a lot at the first of that year and Al always wanted to pull up and do the little push shot off the roll instead of attacking the basket. He sucked at it because it wasn't what he was used to so they went away from it after the first 20 or so games. But I remember them doing it a lot and cringing every time it happened because I was so used to Boozer being able to finish on the same play

 

[Brown Notes]

he's made nominal progress, but that's about it. there are still a huge number of possessions where the balls never touches anybody's hands except al and the initiator on the strong side wing for most/all of the shot clock. and here's the thing... even if he scores on that play, it's just not good basketball. he's an elite post scorer, but the effect he has on team execution is negative. he uses 22.5 possessions per 40 minutes -- or about 28.6% of the team's possessions -- plus all the ones where he doesn't officially use the play but he dictates what happens because he stops the ball so long that by the time he finally gets rid of it there isn't time to go through the set and run the options so someone winds up shooting a late inefficient shot.

now consider that he gets 1.04 points per shot, or .974 points per possession... both below the team average. why would you let a player that inefficient dictate somewhere around a third of your team's offense?

final thought: if, as a previous poster stated, al/fav/kan are "interchangeable" then isn't keeping all 3 a bad idea? don't you need some versatility? if you have three guys who are a little too undistinguishable, aren't you a ridiculously easy team to prep for and shut down? not to mention that miami just showed the league how to shut down al: front him, ball-deny and, if it comes right down to it, just put a smaller hyperactive defender on him to frustrate him because he doesn't play physical enough to use his size advantage to overpower anybody.

Wow, I don't know how you could get much more wrong.

Miami was fronting Al all game. What happened in the 4th was we stopped using Hi-Lo to beat it. Why, I don't know, guys probably were just reverting under pressure. But Al was definitely being physical with LBJ, getting plenty of space from the rim for a lob or entry from the top of the key. Saying Al was responsible for not getting the ball due to being passive is beyond ridiculous. Perhaps you should watch it again.

Also, these nominal improvements represent steps toward a much more complete game. We have definitely seen, this year, flashes of very good defensive rotations from Al. It's a big deal to see he can do it, and he will get more and more consistent as he works at it. Same goes with his passing, 2 years ago he didn't see any need to do anything but try to score once the ball was in his hands. Last year he started passing out of doubles and finding open shooters from time to time, this year we are seeing that sweet hook pass into the lane, a lot more interior passing between all the bigs and Al is passing directly out of his shooting motion with accuracy to outside shooters.

It's really odd I feel like the only person who was wowed with Al opening himself up to that high pass against the fronting defender, and shielding the incoming ball. Last year Corbin specifically talked about this and implied Al didn't even get what he was talking about. If Al can do this he can also open himself up rolling to the basket after a screen. These plays result in fouls called a lot more often than his typical shake n bake push shots. Also if he can get this going a lot more of the court will be useful to him. Do you see how this stuff sort of all comes together?

Nerd, you and others do a wonderful job of supporting your statements with statistics and I don't want to discredit that too much, but in a way this stuff is a bit of a smokescreen in that there seems to be an implication that the player is a finished product. Maybe to you he is, or you want him to be since his best attribute alone is not good enough to build a team around. But it isn't so. These additions to his game do matter and do help make the team better, and the things he added in the past continue to improve. Altogether it represents a commitment to hard work that Al gets not only no credit for, but actually is accused of the opposite.

Obviously I don't expect to change anybody's mind around here, so clearly I'm a little crazy to keep chewing on this argument. But I'm excited to see what happens next with him. IMO he is going to be really, really good coming on down the stretch this year, we are going to start seeing strings of games where he is averaging over 3 assists and 5 FTs.

When that happens the FO is going to have to think really hard before committing to moving on without him.

 

[billyshelby]

We're not keeping Al or Sap so I have no idea why there is any reason to debate. We'll roll into next season with Favors/Kanter as we should, and neither can score remotely as well in the post as Al or Sap. We'll be worse while they get better, and hopefully they actually will get better.

The only question is whether the FO deems trading Al, Sap, or both a better option than letting them expire and having the cap space. The FA market isn't great, and I dread how they will use that flexibility, but cap space in the abstract is good.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Imo I think in the recent weeks you're really starting to see the extent of how far AL has progressed as a player since being here. He's a much more willing and improved passer than he was when he got here, he's been much more agressive instead of settling for jumpers (since the new year began), and he actually comes out to defend the pick and roll. When he's agressive you're really starting to see the extent of his footwork

He's not perfect, but he's a much better player than he was when we got him from Minny.

He was only around 24 when we got him if I remember correctly, he's only a month older than Sap.

every year he shows a flash of that.
but for the msot part he is just fools gold.

and come playoff time he will be like mcgrady.
bringin us NOWHERE>
cus you need defense from your center. and he refuses to play defense

 

[DutchJazzer]

2010-shows mid range J
2011-learns to share ball
2012-showing ability to play team D, opening up to Hi-Lo entry pass.

Al's improvement is not a myth.

problem is everyear he ahs shown thos e things. you just choose to see it late.
he has shown the abilty to play d way before this year,
he had midrange shto in minnesota

 

[Brown Notes]

I didn't pay any attention to Al before '10 which happens to be the same year I was able to start watching a lot of Jazz games.

What I posted was what I saw happening. I remember I think Locke or Harp discussing how they didn't know Al could reliably score outside 5 feet early on.

 

[DutchJazzer]

Wow, I don't know how you could get much more wrong.

Miami was fronting Al all game. What happened in the 4th was we stopped using Hi-Lo to beat it. Why, I don't know, guys probably were just reverting under pressure. But Al was definitely being physical with LBJ, getting plenty of space from the rim for a lob or entry from the top of the key. Saying Al was responsible for not getting the ball due to being passive is beyond ridiculous. Perhaps you should watch it again.

Also, these nominal improvements represent steps toward a much more complete game. We have definitely seen, this year, flashes of very good defensive rotations from Al. It's a big deal to see he can do it, and he will get more and more consistent as he works at it. Same goes with his passing, 2 years ago he didn't see any need to do anything but try to score once the ball was in his hands. Last year he started passing out of doubles and finding open shooters from time to time, this year we are seeing that sweet hook pass into the lane, a lot more interior passing between all the bigs and Al is passing directly out of his shooting motion with accuracy to outside shooters.

It's really odd I feel like the only person who was wowed with Al opening himself up to that high pass against the fronting defender, and shielding the incoming ball. Last year Corbin specifically talked about this and implied Al didn't even get what he was talking about. If Al can do this he can also open himself up rolling to the basket after a screen. These plays result in fouls called a lot more often than his typical shake n bake push shots. Also if he can get this going a lot more of the court will be useful to him. Do you see how this stuff sort of all comes together?

Nerd, you and others do a wonderful job of supporting your statements with statistics and I don't want to discredit that too much, but in a way this stuff is a bit of a smokescreen in that there seems to be an implication that the player is a finished product. Maybe to you he is, or you want him to be since his best attribute alone is not good enough to build a team around. But it isn't so. These additions to his game do matter and do help make the team better, and the things he added in the past continue to improve. Altogether it represents a commitment to hard work that Al gets not only no credit for, but actually is accused of the opposite.

Obviously I don't expect to change anybody's mind around here, so clearly I'm a little crazy to keep chewing on this argument. But I'm excited to see what happens next with him. IMO he is going to be really, really good coming on down the stretch this year, we are going to start seeing strings of games where he is averaging over 3 assists and 5 FTs.

When that happens the FO is going to have to think really hard before committing to moving on without him.

if you see al is improving with minutes. why waste minutes on him when favors and kanter are way better.
they need minutes to improve to.

screw al's "improvement"
it is a myth anyway

 

[DutchJazzer]

Obviously I don't expect to change anybody's mind around here, so clearly I'm a little crazy to keep chewing on this argument. But I'm excited to see what happens next with him. IMO he is going to be really, really good coming on down the stretch this year, we are going to start seeing strings of games where he is averaging over 3 assists and 5 FTs.

and the playoff comes around and we get swept because of his truly amazing lack of defense. and avg 40 minutes per game in the playoff.
but hey atleast kanter and favors will get 3-8 minutes per game of valuable playoff experience

 

[Brown Notes]

and the playoff comes around and we get swept because of his truly amazing lack of defense. and avg 40 minutes per game in the playoff.
but hey atleast kanter and favors will get 3-8 minutes per game of valuable playoff experience

I don't believe any of that will happen. Al's better, Ty's better, Derrick is way better and Enes is getting good too. The other support players are far superior to Raja, Harris, CJ and Howard. Telling me this team can't perform any better than last year is a tough sell bud.