Dear FRONT OFFICE: NO ONE WANTS TO WIN GAMES WITH RJ AND MW!

[DutchJazzer]

Burks, burke and hayward can shoot the 3.
its just a matter of putitng in the RIGHT system.

it is no accident spurs players seem invincible on 3 point line.
they get lots of open 3's

 

[Hitman]

Winning too many games this year, and losing out on a top pick hurts this team. Unless it's the core 5 doing it themselves.

Did you even read my post? It is the Core 5 doing it, now that they are a 5 (i.e. since Trey has been playing). With one minor exception, the Core 5 are getting more court time and scoring more than both RJ and MW.

PPG:

Hayward - 17.1
Burke - 13.7
Favors - 13.5
Burks - 12.9
Kanter - 11.4
Jefferson - 10.4
Williams - 9.3
Evans - 6.8

MPG:

Hayward - 36.1
Favors - 31.3
Burke - 31.0
Burks - 27.6
Jefferson - 27.5
Williams - 26.4
Kanter - 25.0
Evans - 18.8

So only Kanter, who started the season in poor physical condition, averages less minutes that the vets who are supposedly favored, although he still scores more, because he takes more shots than they do. RJ and MW are essentially the #6 and #7 guys on the depth chart, even though they start.

Since RJ, and Marvin will probably be gone next year, and with them we aren't a playoff team or a bottom seed going nowhere at best. Why are we playing them with our young core now?

Because the Core 5 can't play 48 mins a game and have to have someone else on the court with them. Because it's better for their development to play with guys that the defence has to account for, instead of someone like JLIII. Because RJ and MW are willing to accept their roles as 4th and 5th offensive options. Because RJ and MW run the offence and pass the ball (RJ is 4th on the team in assists, BTW).

Again, the premise of this thread is faulty. RJ and MW aren't winning games for us.

 

[Hitman]

Burks, burke and hayward can shoot the 3.
its just a matter of putitng in the RIGHT system.

it is no accident spurs players seem invincible on 3 point line.
they get lots of open 3's

Burke and Hayward, yes. Burks not so much, but he's definitely improving.

 

[Primetime]

Did you even read my post? It is the Core 5 doing it, now that they are a 5 (i.e. since Trey has been playing). With one minor exception, the Core 5 are getting more court time and scoring more than both RJ and MW.

So only Kanter, who started the season in poor physical condition, averages less minutes that the vets who are supposedly favored, although he still scores more, because he takes more shots than they do. RJ and MW are essentially the #6 and #7 guys on the depth chart, even though they start.

Because the Core 5 can't play 48 mins a game and have to have someone else on the court with them. Because it's better for their development to play with guys that the defence has to account for, instead of someone like JLIII. Because RJ and MW are willing to accept their roles as 4th and 5th offensive options. Because RJ and MW run the offence and pass the ball (RJ is 4th on the team in assists, BTW).

Again, the premise of this thread is faulty. RJ and MW aren't winning games for us.

You're right they are not winning because of them but with out RJ and Marvin there is no chance this team has already 14 wins.

 

[Revolution 9]

Did you even read my post? It is the Core 5 doing it, now that they are a 5 (i.e. since Trey has been playing). With one minor exception, the Core 5 are getting more court time and scoring more than both RJ and MW.

PPG:

Hayward - 17.1
Burke - 13.7
Favors - 13.5
Burks - 12.9
Kanter - 11.4
Jefferson - 10.4
Williams - 9.3
Evans - 6.8

MPG:

Hayward - 36.1
Favors - 31.3
Burke - 31.0
Burks - 27.6
Jefferson - 27.5
Williams - 26.4
Kanter - 25.0
Evans - 18.8

So only Kanter, who started the season in poor physical condition, averages less minutes that the vets who are supposedly favored, although he still scores more, because he takes more shots than they do. RJ and MW are essentially the #6 and #7 guys on the depth chart, even though they start.

Because the Core 5 can't play 48 mins a game and have to have someone else on the court with them. Because it's better for their development to play with guys that the defence has to account for, instead of someone like JLIII. Because RJ and MW are willing to accept their roles as 4th and 5th offensive options. Because RJ and MW run the offence and pass the ball (RJ is 4th on the team in assists, BTW).

Again, the premise of this thread is faulty. RJ and MW aren't winning games for us.

Yes they are. You don't even understand what your post said. Did you read your own thoughts? For heavens sake son.
You talk about credible outside shooters, and their importance. Then try, and say its ALL the core 5. Oh I agree with you that is
mainly the core 5. doh. In fact the main factor is Trey. He is the glue. He is the driving force. However, if you take out RJ, and Marvin we have more losses. because as you said "Without credible outside shooters, we would be back to where we were 2 years ago, with defences playing "with one foot in the paint". The big men would face endless double-teams in the post and defenders would be free to help off their man whenever we tried to run a pick-and-roll."
If you think differently then what we'll just agree to disagree.

No one is saying play the rookies 48 mins. Again, when you don't even know your own point you go with extremes. The point is, and always has been the amount of playing time. Not playing the rookies the WHOLE game.

Could we play RJ, and Marvin less. Absolutely. That is what most people are trying to say. Could Gobert, or should Gobert play more? Of course he should.

 

[franklin]

Yes they are. You don't even understand what your post said. Did you read your own thoughts? For heavens sake son.
You talk about credible outside shooters, and their importance. Then try, and say its ALL the core 5. Oh I agree with you that is
mainly the core 5. doh. In fact the main factor is Trey. He is the glue. He is the driving force. However, if you take out RJ, and Marvin we have more losses. because as you said "Without credible outside shooters, we would be back to where we were 2 years ago, with defences playing "with one foot in the paint". The big men would face endless double-teams in the post and defenders would be free to help off their man whenever we tried to run a pick-and-roll."
If you think differently then what we'll just agree to disagree.

No one is saying play the rookies 48 mins. Again, when you don't even know your own point you go with extremes. The point is, and always has been the amount of playing time. Not playing the rookies the WHOLE game.

Could we play RJ, and Marvin less. Absolutely. That is what most people are trying to say. Could Gobert, or should Gobert play more? Of course he should.

Revbro, you should change your name to Richard_Williams_Be_Gone for the rest of the season.

 

[GVC]

Kinda like alec burks.

Last game burks took what, 2 shots and the jazz seemed just fine.

Thats the problem i have

How is that a problem? If Alec is only able to contribute by putting the ball in the basket, he's never going to be a solid starter in the NBA. His ability to score is incredibly overrated by Jazzfanz posters.

You, gvc, jim less, and frank keep telling me that burks cant start cause it wont work, favors and kanter cant play together, the young players need jefferson and marvin to play along side of them to be any good etc etc.

Perhaps you can point me to a post where I said anything like that. The argument I've made is that to maximize the on-ball opportunity of Trey, Gordo and Alec, it's best to bring one off the bench. That player is not going to be Trey. Gordo is superior off-ball and defensively, so it's not going to be Gordo either. Burks makes too much sense off the bench.

But then i see burks start and the team looks great.
I see favors and kanter playing together and the team kicking ***.

The team has looked pretty good with Alec and Kanter off the bench, RJ providing spacing and size on the wing, and Marvin providing spacing at the 4. Kanter and Favors have not consistently been kicking *** together. A couple games is not a trend.

So maybe if the core 5 got to start together then you guys would find out that that lineup works together.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if that lineup works together more often than not. Again, that's not the point.

 

[GVC]

Resorting to the insults now? Now I know I'm on track.

Getting a reaction from someone is not proof that what you've posted isn't complete nonsense. Still, sorry for resorting to insult. Inappropriate.

"helps the youth on the team learn to play winning NBA basketball" What was our record to start the season? Excuse me that's not winning basketball.
Are you dense? Laughable is your statement now. THIS TEAM STARTING WINNING WHEN A ROOKIE CAME IN.

Where did I say the vets were most responsible for the wins? The mix of youth in key roles with vets in suitable complementary roles (RJ providing spacing and size, Marvin providing spacing) is what has led to the Jazz's improved record. Having talent that can come off the bench and play well has been pretty important as well. These guys generally execute pretty consistently, and I think that's mostly because Corbin is spreading talent and using lineups that work.

And again "vastly different roles this season". They could have been better prepared last year, when we wasted time on Big Al, and Sap. When some of us, me and others, knew they weren't our future.

So because the FO didn't move Al and Sap earlier, and move the young players into larger roles sooner, they should skip steps and push the young players too fast now? That's ridiculous.


There are those of us who challenge the notion that playing time is the only thing that matters for development. If you want a player to develop into a successful NBA player, you don't skip steps. Throwing players into roles they can't handle, surrounded by lesser talent in lineups that don't work, hurts the young talent on the team (****, look at how much Gordo and Kanter have struggled this year). I'm not sure increasing your odds at moving up a couple spots in the draft is worth ****ting on the current players. I'm also a basketball fan who generally enjoys basketball played well. It's been fun watching this team grow this season. I think that's worth something as well.

 

[Revolution 9]

GVC - This is what I got from an earlier post. That the vets were needed, because our core 5 wouldn't know how to play winning basketball without them. I never thought that you believed the vets were responsible for more wins or losses(I do believe that myself). I'm curious to know what you think about that though. I agree with you the impact of spacing having Marvin, and RJ out there. I don't agree that we need their vet guidance to show how to win games. They should have already learned that over the past 3-4 under even better players.

 

[Revolution 9]

Revbro, you should change your name to Richard_Williams_Be_Gone for the rest of the season.

I had to eat some crow especially early on about Marvin. Remember my hatred for him last year? He helped this team win some games, and his impact in spacing can't be denied. That's why I want him gone today, because he gives us just enough to help sway some games.

RJ helps some games as well, but he seems to have one foot out the door.

 

[silesian]

huh?

Getting the 8th seed two years ago cost us Harrison Barnes

How exactly could have drafted Barnes with the 14th pick?

 

[Revolution 9]

So because the FO didn't move Al and Sap earlier, and move the young players into larger roles sooner, they should skip steps and push the young players too fast now? That's ridiculous. There are those of us who challenge the notion that playing time is the only thing that matters for development. If you want a player to develop into a successful NBA player, you don't skip steps. Throwing players into roles they can't handle, surrounded by lesser talent in lineups that don't work, hurts the young talent on the team (****, look at how much Gordo and Kanter have struggled this year). I'm not sure increasing your odds at moving up a couple spots in the draft is worth ****ting on the current players. I'm also a basketball fan who generally enjoys basketball played well. It's been fun watching this team grow this season. I think that's worth something as well.

That's not what i'm saying. I don't think they so far behind that they need to play with vets this year to learn how to win. Yes, I think they would be further along(had they got the time last year), but they are still ready to play on their own this year. Especially if your #1 goal isn't to win games this year. We are playing for the future. Your opinion is noted. They weren't ready to play this year by themselves. I flat out disagree. I think they've learned enough. It reminds me of when Luke goes off to fight Vadar in Empire. He wasn't fully ready, but he knew enough to hold his own. Fighting Vadar himself actually gave him all the training he needed. When he went back to Yoda, he said he was done. That is what I think would have happened had they gone into this year sans RJ or Marvin. However, it's already moot. All I want is to GET RID OF THEM NOW.

It seems you think their development would somehow not happen this year without RJ, and Marvin. That is flat out ridiculous imo. There is no doubt they have helped them in ways. That's not the point. Would they be completely lost, and hopeless without Jefferson, and Marvin? Please.

 

[GVC]

It seems you think their development would somehow not happen this year without RJ, and Marvin.

Never said that. RJ has been a key player on contending teams. He understands what it takes to prepare to win when you're being counted on to play a key role. I don't think these young guys would be playing as steadily without his veteran presence, and I think that matters for development. Further, I think playing in lineups that make sense, where the players complement each other, giving each player a better chance to succeed in his role, helps with development. Would these players be getting better? Of Course, but playing time isn't the only thing that matters for development.

A more relevant analogy (Star Wars????): You don't teach an infant math by handing him/her a calculus textbook. There's a process. Not following that process, where players are given more as they can handle more, leads to short cuts, bad habits and more failure than success. When players accept failure or other sub-optimal outcomes, they never fulfill their potential. This isn't a video game/movie; these are real people.

 

[Coach Ellis]

How exactly could have drafted Barnes with the 14th pick?

I don't think it would have. Had the Jazz lost the late game to the Warriors, they would have kept their pick and possibly gained Golden States pick by having them finish 8th without the coin flip. Jazz would have had two 1st round picks - 8th and 14th (although there was no guarantee that GSW couldn't tank better and still ended up 7th.)

Since PG was clearly a targeted position that year I could see the Jazz trying to package up to get local small-school phenom Damian Lillard. But then they'd have lost their pick the following season AND not had the extra pick from Golden State. I don't think that Barnes would have been a Jazz even if they had kept that pick.

Lilliard vs. Burke - love Lillard, but think Burke has proven he'll be a very good player as well. Things worked out in the end.

 

[Revolution 9]

I don't think these young guys would be playing as steadily without his veteran presence, and I think that matters for development. Further, I think playing in lineups that make sense, where the players complement each other, giving each player a better chance to succeed in his role, helps with development. Would these players be getting better? Of Course, but playing time isn't the only thing that matters for development.

A more relevant analogy (Star Wars????): You don't teach an infant math by handing him/her a calculus textbook. There's a process. Not following that process, where players are given more as they can handle more, leads to short cuts, bad habits and more failure than success. When players accept failure or other sub-optimal outcomes, they never fulfill their potential. This isn't a video game/movie; these are real people.

The point I care about isn't what impact they've had on their development, but their impact on the wins and losses of this season. Where they fit in with the future,
and the impact of keeping them all year.

Do you want to keep them him all year? I don't. If they've learned these things now, will they unlearn if they leave. and more importantly will keeping them here impact our draft pick?

 

[franklin]

I had to eat some crow especially early on about Marvin. Remember my hatred for him last year? He helped this team win some games, and his impact in spacing can't be denied. That's why I want him gone today, because he gives us just enough to help sway some games.

RJ helps some games as well, but he seems to have one foot out the door.

Exactly. Begone Dick Willey, begone.

 

[Jeditiger]

The point I care about isn't what impact they've had on their development, but their impact on the wins and losses of this season. Where they fit in with the future,
and the impact of keeping them all year.

Do you want to keep them him all year? I don't. If they've learned these things now, will they unlearn if they leave. and more importantly will keeping them here impact our draft pick?

Actually I would love for the Jazz to re-sign Marvin. RJ has his own prerogative, and hopefully the Jazz can find him a home on a contender before this season is over. I'm not worried about draft picks at this point. That stuff will sort itself out.

 

[GVC]

The point I care about isn't what impact they've had on their development, but their impact on the wins and losses of this season. Where they fit in with the future,
and the impact of keeping them all year.

Do you want to keep them him all year? I don't. If they've learned these things now, will they unlearn if they leave. and more importantly will keeping them here impact our draft pick?

Learning is a process. Marvin and RJ are helping the young guys learn. They still have a lot to learn. Do you really think experience/mentoring are of no value?

I think it's reasonable to think that succeeding in an appropriate and well-defined role and winning games helps players learn better and faster. Players absolutely can regress when placed in poor situations where they're bound to fail. I think it's ridiculous to put losing games ahead of development at this point, especially since this team won't be as bad as Milwaukee, Philly or Orlando unless they unload their young talent. For the most part, the young guys have been given ample opportunity and responsibility to learn and grow. I wouldn't mind seeing Alec take a few more of RJ's minutes, but that's a minor gripe (and Alec is overrated on this site). It's unfortunate that you've already written off the young players on this team.

With that said, if the Jazz can acquire something for Jefferson, they should definitely consider it. Rush has been playing better of late and Alec has shown improvements playing off-ball this season. Like everyone else on this site, I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, or how much of an impact RJ is having on the young guys. He and Trey seem to have a good relationship on and off the court, but again, I don't know the relative value of that and whatever assets you can get for RJ. Like jeditiger, I think the draft will sort itself out, and the focus should be on how to best use and develop the talent currently on the team.

 

[Revolution 9]

Learning is a process. Marvin and RJ are helping the young guys learn. They still have a lot to learn. Do you really think experience/mentoring are of no value?

I think it's reasonable to think that succeeding in an appropriate and well-defined role and winning games helps players learn better and faster. Players absolutely can regress when placed in poor situations where they're bound to fail. I think it's ridiculous to put losing games ahead of development at this point, especially since this team won't be as bad as Milwaukee, Philly or Orlando unless they unload their young talent. For the most part, the young guys have been given ample opportunity and responsibility to learn and grow. I wouldn't mind seeing Alec take a few more of RJ's minutes, but that's a minor gripe (and Alec is overrated on this site). It's unfortunate that you've already written off the young players on this team.

With that said, if the Jazz can acquire something for Jefferson, they should definitely consider it. Rush has been playing better of late and Alec has shown improvements playing off-ball this season. Like everyone else on this site, I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, or how much of an impact RJ is having on the young guys. He and Trey seem to have a good relationship on and off the court, but again, I don't know the relative value of that and whatever assets you can get for RJ. Like jeditiger, I think the draft will sort itself out, and the focus should be on how to best use and develop the talent currently on the team.

Playing time is the most important thing. Coaching staff, ALL the vets, practice, film, etc. We agree they are helping, but we are nowhere close on the impact. Let's leave it at that.

Sorting itself is all fine, and dandy if this opportunity wasn't in front of us. Where do the vets fit into our future? Is this group as is good enough to compete for a title in 3 years. If not what additions will help that?

I see the draft as the best possible way to get the missing piece. It's not fail safe, and there is risk. Right now on paper I believe it's the way we should be going. If what you say is true about the learning process, and I agree with lots of it then isn't it time to let RJ and Marvin go if we can? I'd like to see Hayward play with Trey without RJ. Can Hayward be that guy. It's time to find out before we have to decide on the contract.

 

[Revolution 9]

Actually I would love for the Jazz to re-sign Marvin. RJ has his own prerogative, and hopefully the Jazz can find him a home on a contender before this season is over. I'm not worried about draft picks at this point. That stuff will sort itself out.

Where does Gobert fit into the future if Marvin is resigned? We should take a look at extending Marvin(heavens knows we are acting like his is part of the future now). Drafting/adding a vet shooter this offseason is another option.