Coronavirus

The Thriller said:

I don’t believe those sick enough to desire hospitalization will spread the virus more than others. In fact, aren’t the most contagious times for covid in the early stages of the infection? Those who desire hospitalization are usually one week into infection and I don’t think they’re much of a threat to go to concerts or sing at a church. If they’re turned down a hospital bed in favor of someone who was Responsible, then they’ll probably return home, ramp up the hydroxy and dewormer and rest.

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Not to mention spread the infection further to anyone who lives with them, who will then spread it to their coworkers, where they shop, etc.

The Thriller said:

I think your accusation of this being a joke was a cheap shot. I think you knew it wasn’t a joke. I don’t have a history of being callous or joking in such a manner. It’s okay to admit it was a cheap shot.

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Saying it was a joke was, from my perspective, the kinder and more generous interpretation. No need to worry, I won't make that error again.

The Thriller said:

I’m not sure if there is a debate to have. We just may have to agree to disagree. I don’t believe those responsibly vaccinated should see their health care curbed in favor of the irresponsible. It’s time for the rest of society to move on. Covid anti vaxxers have made their choice. If anything, this can act as an incentive to get vaccinated because now they know that literally their ability to get health care will be dependent on their vaccination status.

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Should any actual providers want to correct me on any of this, I'll be more than happy to cede the floor.

The relationship between a medical provider and a patient is considered so precious and important, it's one of the few interactions you can make that are immune to being repeated as testimony (other examples being clergy, spouses, and attorneys). Their only functions is to bring a patient back to an optimal level of health. This means they can't judge a patient on their past, only advise them on how to do better.

This is not to say doctors can't act in the best interest of others as well as the patient. They use measures like quarantining, or occasionally needing to contact the authorities in case of immanent threats. However, the primary focus is on getting the patient the best possible care, regardless.

If you open the door to providers judging people who refuse the vaccine, who else do they get to decide deserves or does not deserve care? If they think a patient ate too much red meat, can they refuse to treat colon cancer, saying the resources would be better used on vegans? How about asthma sufferers who live in polluted areas? Everyone engages in some sort of potentially hazardous activities.

Also, once you set this standard, do you see private (or even government) insurance companies not picking this up and running with it to reduce expenses and increase predictability? They will take it out of the doctor's hands entirely, if they can. Picking and choosing whose cancer/diabetes/etc. can be covered will allow for greater profits.

Allow doctors to choose who deserves medical care is placing a greater burden on them then they already face. It's wrong on many levels.

Is Nazi Germany really so stupid that they don't understand personal freedom? If I'm unvaccinated that is a risk I am willingly taking. I understand the consequences that I may get sicker unvaccinated than vaccinated and I also understand that is the only thing the vaccine is doing and NOTHING more.

So if I personally chose, something communist theory hates, to be unvaccinated that is hurting me and me only. Sadly the vaccine doesn't work at all to protect those who did get vaccinated. If it did they should be able to walk into my store and not worry.

JazzyFresh said:

So if they're vaccinated why worry? They have a choice.... You're just admitting the vaccine is pointless. How stupid of you.

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Stupid resides in the person who doesn't understand the difference between 90% protected and 0% protected. I honestly don't think that is you, I think you're probably just semi-trolling. If you love your country enough, you'll get vaccinated.

TheGoldStandard said:

What does a mask do? Blocks respiratory droplets coming from your mouth and throat. Two simple demos: First, I sneezed, sang, talked & coughed toward an agar culture plate with or without a mask. Bacteria colonies show where droplets landed. A mask blocks virtually all of them.
View attachment 11212
Keep in mind virus droplets would travel farther and longer, but you get the idea.

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That would be great if SARS-CoV-2 were a bacteria. It isn't. SARS-CoV-2 is an order of magnitude smaller and doesn't need droplets but rather spreads via aerosolized particles. This is why neck gators are worse than nothing. They catch the heavier droplets that would normally fall to the floor and aerosolize them thereby filling the room with SARS-CoV-2.


That it is so easy to play games with analogs, such as showing bacteria to claim something about a virus, is why I value the real world observational studies so much more. The studies in the schools and out of Bangladesh are actual people wearing real masks against the specific virus at issue versus a control group. I see those as the most robust and those are the statistics I cite.

Well, tested negative for covid but positive for flu A. Doc asked what symptoms I have been experiencing. When I told him none he simply chalked it up to a false positive. Said that 1 out of every 10-12 tests would give a false result. I asked if that was true of the covid test as well. He said it was. This would mean 10% of all people tested are given the wrong results. That seems like an awful high number.

TheGoldStandard said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/richdavisphd

What does a mask do? Blocks respiratory droplets coming from your mouth and throat. Two simple demos: First, I sneezed, sang, talked & coughed toward an agar culture plate with or without a mask. Bacteria colonies show where droplets landed. A mask blocks virtually all of them.
View attachment 11212
Keep in mind virus droplets would travel farther and longer, but you get the idea.

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One of my weekly tasks at work is to make ager petri dishes for our yeast and mold testing.

fishonjazz said:

One of my weekly tasks at work is to make ager petri dishes for our yeast and mold testing.

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Didn't know meth labs needed such things.

Al-O-Meter said:

That would be great if SARS-CoV-2 were a bacteria. It isn't. SARS-CoV-2 is an order of magnitude smaller and doesn't need droplets but rather spreads via aerosolized particles. This is why neck gators are worse than nothing. They catch the heavier droplets that would normally fall to the floor and aerosolize them thereby filling the room with SARS-CoV-2.

That it is so easy to play games with analogs, such as showing bacteria to claim something about a virus, is why I value the real world observational studies so much more. The studies in the schools and out of Bangladesh are actual people wearing real masks against the specific virus at issue versus a control group. I see those as the most robust and those are the statistics I cite.

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Are you serious?

No one is arguing Covid can be spread through aerosolized droplets.No one is arguing droplets carry larger viral load. These are facts.

Nevertheless, it has been proven that viral disease outbreaks via aerosol transmission are not as severe as one would think, because of dilution and inactivation of viruses that linger for extended periods in the air. (The length of time Covid remains active as an aerosol, and the infection rate between aerosol and droplet are still being studied).

Most CDC data shows droplet is the primary form of spread, which would explain why the kids in the front row got Covid at a much higher rate than the rest of the class, as droplets don't travel as far. Masks effectively prevent droplet transmission and larger aerosolized particles (aerosol is defined most conservatively as particles as less than 5 μm, which surgical masks can catch). I am confident if the teacher had kept a mask on there would be far fewer infections.

Surgical masks catch 20% of aerosolized particles, and reduce the spread of them as well (ventilation, filtration, room size, humidity, etc.) all play a large part in how much.

As I have said previously, only fit tested N95s or above will give full protection, but we have seen multiple instances of exposure with no spread when masks are worn consistently, including multiple instances at my kids school with mask mandates with no spread. Looking back, I see 6 instances throughout the school informed me my daughter had direct exposure to a classmate or teacher. They are all at least a month apart.

>2k cases again today, 21 deaths. Hoping some of those are backlogged because that number would be among the worst in any day we've ever had.

Avery said:

Didn't know meth labs needed such things.

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Lol well done chap

TheGoldStandard said:

Are you serious?

No one is arguing Covid can be spread through aerosolized droplets.

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You'd be shocked at what people are arguing. I didn't make that graphic for this thread and it wasn't to debate sports fans.

The Atlantic has a great article on how incorrect early assumptions about droplets versus aerosols have made the pandemic worse, and how scientific authorities are still clinging to them in the face of a mountain of contrary evidence.

In official public-health guidance, however, the possibility of flu-laden aerosols still barely gets a mention. The CDC and World Health Organization guidelines focus on large droplets that supposedly do not travel beyond six feet or one meter, respectively. (Never mind that scientists who actually study aerosols knew this six-foot rule violated the laws of physics.) ... Scientists who had pushed the WHO to recognize airborne transmission of COVID-19 last year told me they were baffled by the resistance they encountered ... Even now, Morawska says, many public-health guidelines are stuck in a pre-airborne world. Where she lives in Australia, people are wearing face masks to walk down the street and then taking them off as soon as they sit down at restaurants, which are operating at full capacity.

The Plan to Stop Every Respiratory Virus at Once

The benefits of ventilation reach far beyond the coronavirus. What if we stop taking colds and flus for granted, too?

www.theatlantic.com

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Cornavirus is airborne. We now know that. Cloth masks aren't effective at stopping this kind of pathogen and we have measured exactly how ineffective they are against this exact virus. Unfortunately stomping out the original thinking of masking and 6 feet of social distancing as effective countermeasures are proving to be as difficult as stomping out the virus itself.

Al-O-Meter said:

You'd be shocked at what people are arguing. I didn't make that graphic for this thread and it wasn't to debate sports fans.

The Atlantic has a great article on how incorrect early assumptions about droplets versus aerosols have made the pandemic worse, and how scientific authorities are still clinging to them in the face of a mountain of contrary evidence.


Cornavirus is airborne. We now know that. Cloth masks aren't effective at stopping this kind of pathogen and we have measured exactly how ineffective they are against this exact virus. Unfortunately stomping out the original thinking of masking and 6 feet of social distancing as effective countermeasures are proving to be as difficult as stomping out the virus itself.

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You are half right. It is airborne, AND droplet. Masks are effective against droplet, there is no debate.

The CDC knew 6 feet wasn't enough from day 1, it was a compromise, and masks are also a compromise. I don't disagree that people should expect masks to fully protect them, but they are a bandaid, and do provide some protection. I never read any authority stating mask would provide 100% protection, and we knew of aerosol spread going back a while.

Better education is always advised in any aspect, but failure to properly educate does not change the fact that masks protect against Covid droplet infection, and stop the spread of a decent percentage of aerosol.

"So, as we talk about vaccine mandates, I get calls all the time, people say, I've already had COVID, I'm protected. And now the study says maybe even more protected than the vaccine alone. Should they also get the vaccine? How do you make the case to them?" Gupta asked.

"You know, that's a really good point, Sanjay. I don't have a really firm answer for you on that," Fauci replied.

Politically, it’s an odd line that some governors are walking right now when they plead for their citizens, outright beg even, to get vaccinated yet also throw ire at plans that are designed to actually get people vaccinated.

No doubt that the mandates and testing posed in the executive order is wielding a pretty big hammer, but there’s little wiggle room to do much else at this point and I don’t see any actual plans in motion from most governors.

Life pre-COVID is such a distance memory.

Avery said:

Politically, it’s an odd line that some governors are walking right now when they plead for their citizens, outright beg even, to get vaccinated yet also throw ire at plans that are designed to actually get people vaccinated.

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Only if you believe the ends justify the means. The President has trashed the 10th Amendment, run right over the Federalist underpinnings of our system of government and has usurped the power of the legislative branch in relying on a legal precedent confirming compelled vaccination was in the domain of the legislative branch. If the Supreme Court strikes down any part of the executive orders he'll use that as the rallying cry to "reform" the Supreme Court. You are watching dictatorship being born. I don't think Biden will be that dictator but the person who will be dictator of America will use the levers of power being installed right now.

Al-O-Meter said:

Only if you believe the ends justify the means. The President has trashed the 10th Amendment, run right over the Federalist underpinnings of our system of government and has usurped the power of the legislative branch in relying on a legal precedent confirming compelled vaccination was in the domain of the legislative branch. If the Supreme Court strikes down any part of the executive orders he'll use that as the rallying cry to "reform" the Supreme Court. You are watching dictatorship being born. I don't think Biden will be that dictator but the person who will be dictator of America will use the levers of power being installed right now.

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This...

I threw around the word Nazi extremely loosely yesterday (being insanely facetious) but he and his administration has officially crossed a line. For as much fear there is a out a virus what he is doing is far more dangerous. I'm not afraid one bit if this ****** virus but I'm terrified of what the Biden administration is doing. I truly do wonder how far this is going to go. Internment camps? It's a definite possibility now

Once again, Anti-Vaxers proven correct by the science.

Israeli study: Natural immunity gives better protection than COVID shot

Just curious, how many here have tested positive and what was your experience?

Al-O-Meter said:

Only if you believe the ends justify the means. The President has trashed the 10th Amendment, run right over the Federalist underpinnings of our system of government and has usurped the power of the legislative branch in relying on a legal precedent confirming compelled vaccination was in the domain of the legislative branch. If the Supreme Court strikes down any part of the executive orders he'll use that as the rallying cry to "reform" the Supreme Court. You are watching dictatorship being born. I don't think Biden will be that dictator but the person who will be dictator of America will use the levers of power being installed right now.

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Weren't vaccine mandates already in existence for decades now? I remember having to get vaccinated to be able to go to school.

fishonjazz said:

Weren't vaccine mandates already in existence for decades now? I remember having to get vaccinated to be able to go to school.

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Schools aren't Federally controlled. Each state runs their own show and state legislatures have the power to mandate vaccines. The Tenth Amendment gives the states that power and the courts have upheld that power. There is nothing wrong with vaccine mandates. There is a huge problem with a US President unilaterally declaring a vaccine mandate will be done. There has never been an instance in US History of the President doing anything like this by decree and daring people to stop him.