Can We Please Just Waive NWG?

[Hekate]

Thybulle can’t really dribble or drive and Shaq can masquerade as a point guard... I don’t think that is a function of playing with guys like Simmons and Embiid.

I wanted a striking name to compare to him... its why I used Matisse.

Well, it was contraversial. That's why I jumped in, lol.

Not much spacing with Embiid, Horford and Simmons so there is some function but tertiary ballhandler would fit better than point forward. He has some skill and a long way to go. I expect him to be much better this season.

 

[KqWIN]

It may or may not be a league wide snub... he might have several minimum offers on the table and he’s waiting for the right one to flesh out. I’m saying he’s super gettable at this point and even if it’s more than a minimum we should go get him. I think our front office has thrown in the towel and is just focused on our guys at this point. They have a history of casting a narrow net and locking in on one or two guys and then staying with it even when they shouldn’t.

It also isn’t just a Shaq thing. There are a handful of players we could bring in that are clearly better prospects than NWG.

I think there is a lazy/easy element to it and a personal component to it... NWG seems like a great person... It’s like if you were the boss and Harry from shipping is not great and he will never be management material but you know what he’s a great guy and I know his family... we could bring in this guy Jeff who is a great candidate to do more but is also solid when it comes to shipping. We already have a shipping department manager so it’s fine to keep NWG... saves me an awkward conversation too.
Then your shipping manager leaves for a different job and you are left promoting Harry or bringing in outside help... but the outside help will require a big bonus to bring over now and there aren’t any candidates... man I wish we had hired Jeff.

If he's super gettable, than every team has passed on him. If he's not, than he's looking for something PT, money, location ect that we may or not provide. One more time...If you're saying this is Jazz specific incompetence that's preventing them from making a move like this, I really don't see it. If the Jazz could get him, then the rest of the league can also get him and are choosing not to.

So all this fluff about the Jazz being conservative or being in love with NWG as the reasons why he isn't signed....big nothing burger to me. There's something about Shaq that is preventing all teams from signing him. Not just UTA.

I also thing it's false that the Jazz cast a narrow net. In fact, they are well known for casting a wide net and holding their own minicamps for FAs and work out more players for the draft than just about anyone. This is how they found Royce, Ingles, ect. Casting a wide net. I would agree that they are focused on their own guys at this point. But that is part of the process. To find guys, you have to believe in them. Sometimes you get Royce, sometimes Niang, and sometimes NWG. The belief/concern calculation isn't that different for NWG and Ingles. The reasons why you would like or dislike NWG as an unproven player are about the same as an unproven Ingles. That not my read on things, but it's also not without reason.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Well, it was contraversial. That's why I jumped in, lol.

Not much spacing with Embiid, Horford and Simmons so there is some function but tertiary ballhandler would fit better than point forward. He has some skill and a long way to go. I expect him to be much better this season.

The defensive splits being so similar just help show how disruptive he is... just want people to know he's an elite perimeter defender... not just a hustler Ellijah Millsap type.

The interesting thing is he could be used in multiple positions on or off ball and can guard 1-3. He has a definite NBA skill you can bank on. The other stuff is interesting and if he refines/develops he's got potential for more.

 

[jom2003]

I'm not sure how much we can read into intel being the reason 30 teams aren't signing him. He's not going to be an all-star. He's going to be a rotation defensive piece (what they tried to sell us on Exum being). The bigger issue here is fit -- we have a need and he's the kind of guy we need. If I'm the Bulls GM, I have no interest in buying wallpaper while I'm busy pouring a foundation. If I'm the Clippers I have a lot of guys who play perimeter defense and I have no need for a minimum guy from Chicago. If I'm Minnesota I know my team sucks and we have much bigger fish to fry. If I'm Miami, I've got a lot of guys who guard the perimeter, including my star player. If I'm New York, it's going to take a lot more than a defensive piece off the bench to put out the dumpster fire. If I'm the Lakers, I have the luxury of finding exactly who I want.

90% of the league doesn't need someone like Shaq. So to say 30 NBA teams know something is misleading. It's more a question of why aren't teams like Utah and Portland signing him. And the answer to the former is more complicated than saying there's a flaw with Shaq. It's because they're holding on to guys that they, for whatever reason, have valued higher. And if you don't think we have a track record of overvaluing our guys compared to other, better options around the league, then I'm not sure what to tell you.

This is 100% about fit.

Exactly. He was a 10min bench guy coming from one of the worst teams in the league. And that team just waived him for nothing. I won't overreact to teams not being interested as if we are looking at a starter caliber player. He fills an obvious need here but teams in today's NBA actually prioritize perimeter defense because they don't funnel everything to the big man inside so what he brings seem valuable to us but rather redundant to other contending teams.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

If he's super gettable, than every team has passed on him. If he's not, than he's looking for something PT, money, location ect that we may or not provide. One more time...If you're saying this is Jazz specific incompetence that's preventing them from making a move like this, I really don't see it. If the Jazz could get him, then the rest of the league can also get him and are choosing not to.

So all this fluff about the Jazz being conservative or being in love with NWG as the reasons why he isn't signed....big nothing burger to me. There's something about Shaq that is preventing all teams from signing him. Not just UTA.

I also thing it's false that the Jazz cast a narrow net. In fact, they are well known for casting a wide net and holding their own minicamps for FAs and work out more players for the draft than just about anyone. This is how they found Royce, Ingles, ect. Casting a wide net. I would agree that they are focused on their own guys at this point. But that is part of the process. To find guys, you have to believe in them. Sometimes you get Royce, sometimes Niang, and sometimes NWG. The belief/concern calculation isn't that different for NWG and Ingles. The reasons why you would like or dislike NWG as an unproven player are about the same as an unproven Ingles. That not my read on things, but it's also not without reason.

Royce played at Baylor... Joe was a great find. He locks in on guys a lot in the draft. Its almost comical. He targets guys like Mike and won't deviate if the price is too high. This offseason a couple teams got the drop on us by flipping stuff we sent for something more than we got. There were circumstances but he either can't think on the fly or just didn't poke around enough. He was locked into his guys that he knew would be there so it likely doesn't matter. He drafts guys from Duke, Kansas, UNC... ain't like he's finding guys every year and developing them like Miami. I don't know that we've had one second round pick that has panned out since he took over... In the Jokic draft we had a second we sold because there weren't other guys that DL liked... that doesn't strike me as a wide net. DL is slowly reactive rather than actively looking to improve the team. He's a C+ GM that gets the credit of a 4.0 student.

As it relates to shaq he's gettable but that doesn't mean he can be had for a minimum deal. He might have minimum deals on the table in various locations that aren't ideal and eventually settles... but if some team came in with a 3 year 9M offer (we can do it through a sign and trade its quite easy). It might be the winning offer... that's what I mean by super gettable. Its fine though we can just let a glamour market scoop him up for a minimum deal.

The league as a whole misses on guys a lot for various reasons... and it isn't just Shaq. There are 10-15 guys much more deserving of a roster spot than NWG and its getting late... so hopefully DL hasn't closed up shop... but we know he likes to do his business early.

 

[infection]

If he's super gettable, than every team has passed on him. If he's not, than he's looking for something PT, money, location ect that we may or not provide. One more time...If you're saying this is Jazz specific incompetence that's preventing them from making a move like this, I really don't see it. If the Jazz could get him, then the rest of the league can also get him and are choosing not to.

So all this fluff about the Jazz being conservative or being in love with NWG as the reasons why he isn't signed....big nothing burger to me. There's something about Shaq that is preventing all teams from signing him. Not just UTA.

I also thing it's false that the Jazz cast a narrow net. In fact, they are well known for casting a wide net and holding their own minicamps for FAs and work out more players for the draft than just about anyone. This is how they found Royce, Ingles, ect. Casting a wide net. I would agree that they are focused on their own guys at this point. But that is part of the process. To find guys, you have to believe in them. Sometimes you get Royce, sometimes Niang, and sometimes NWG. The belief/concern calculation isn't that different for NWG and Ingles. The reasons why you would like or dislike NWG as an unproven player are about the same as an unproven Ingles. That not my read on things, but it's also not without reason.

I think the biggest flaw in rationalizing this through the lens of why 30 teams have passed on him is to carry that logic forward and look at the other side of the coin and ask ourselves why we have so many guys on our roster that 29 other teams have passed on, and would pass on again, and ask ourselves how many guys would be out of the league if we waived them now.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

9% of the league just tested positive for the Rona... so yeah your 14th man can quickly become a rotation piece this year. When your 8th and 9th men are Niang and Oni I think its fair to invest in something for that 14th spot... when you also have 3 guys who are basically straight 5s and one more that should be a 5 (morgan) I think its fair to say wing depth is something we should look at. If you are really concerned about pg depth there are proven options out there...

But sure... NWG is the best use of the 14th roster spot. And our GM(s) are super smart for keeping him around.

 

[KqWIN]

I think the biggest flaw in rationalizing this through the lens of why 30 teams have passed on him is to carry that logic forward and look at the other side of the coin and ask ourselves why we have so many guys on our roster that 29 other teams have passed on, and would pass on again, and ask ourselves how many guys would be out of the league if we waived them now.

Every team has guys like that. Go across the league and count how many guys you'd rather have Shaq or any other unsigned player. My point is, if you think its something Jazz specific why Shaq isn't signed, ask yourself why no one else has either. You may still think it's crazy not to sign him, but saying we're not signing him because of something that's specific to our incompetence does not add up. It can't be Jazz specific if no one else has signed him or any other unsigned FA. That doesn't come from rational thought, that comes from wanting to whine about your own team.

 

[infection]

Every team has guys like that. Go across the league and count how many guys you'd rather have Shaq or any other unsigned player. My point is, if you think its something Jazz specific why Shaq isn't signed, ask yourself why no one else has either. You may still think it's crazy not to sign him, but saying we're not signing him because of something that's specific to our incompetence does not add up. It can't be Jazz specific if no one else has signed him or any other unsigned FA. That doesn't come from rational thought, that comes from wanting to whine about your own team.

HH has already mentioned this that it's not about Shaq. We have a very specific weakness. And there are very specific available improvements we can make, but we refuse to do so. Shaq just happens to be one of them. But we can't bemoan nobody else picking up Shaq as an indicator when we're currently keeping a guy who we want Shaq to replace, who would be out of the league if we waived him. That logic just isn't consistent. We can't play both sides of the fence.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Every team has guys like that. Go across the league and count how many guys you'd rather have Shaq or any other unsigned player. My point is, if you think its something Jazz specific why Shaq isn't signed, ask yourself why no one else has either. You may still think it's crazy not to sign him, but saying we're not signing him because of something that's specific to our incompetence does not add up. It can't be Jazz specific if no one else has signed him or any other unsigned FA. That doesn't come from rational thought, that comes from wanting to whine about your own team.

Wait... every team has bad players that are worse than shaq... every team has passed on shaq (not true but I'll humor you) so there must be something wrong with him because these teams are all more competent than us... This seems circular.

There are just some front offices that are bad... every team passes on good players in the draft every year. They are flawed in their evaluations. i don't think Shaq is out there murdering baby seals... I think they are just much more comfortable trusting bigger sample sizes and guys like Shaq don't have pedigree and have to prove it over a longer period of time.

Its why a team gives the full MLE to a backup 5 when their best player is a 5 and they just drafted a 5. They like the comfort of the proven guy.

 

[KqWIN]

Royce played at Baylor... Joe was a great find. He locks in on guys a lot in the draft. Its almost comical. He targets guys like Mike and won't deviate if the price is too high. This offseason a couple teams got the drop on us by flipping stuff we sent for something more than we got. There were circumstances but he either can't think on the fly or just didn't poke around enough. He was locked into his guys that he knew would be there so it likely doesn't matter. He drafts guys from Duke, Kansas, UNC... ain't like he's finding guys every year and developing them like Miami. I don't know that we've had one second round pick that has panned out since he took over... In the Jokic draft we had a second we sold because there weren't other guys that DL liked... that doesn't strike me as a wide net. DL is slowly reactive rather than actively looking to improve the team. He's a C+ GM that gets the credit of a 4.0 student.

As it relates to shaq he's gettable but that doesn't mean he can be had for a minimum deal. He might have minimum deals on the table in various locations that aren't ideal and eventually settles... but if some team came in with a 3 year 9M offer (we can do it through a sign and trade its quite easy). It might be the winning offer... that's what I mean by super gettable. Its fine though we can just let a glamour market scoop him up for a minimum deal.

The league as a whole misses on guys a lot for various reasons... and it isn't just Shaq. There are 10-15 guys much more deserving of a roster spot than NWG and its getting late... so hopefully DL hasn't closed up shop... but we know he likes to do his business early.

All of this sounds to me like you're just complaining about the Jazz...which is fine. But don't tell me that passing on a players that nobody wants is Jazz specific. Like a better FO would make moves to sign these players instead. Those players are unsigned because nobody wants them or nobody wants to give them what they're asking for.

Fans want action. Transactions are fun, but it clouds judgement. I'm not even going with the "no move is sometimes the best move". Sometimes we make a ton of moves and people still think we weren't active. Last off season for example, there was huge overhaul. All of them failed outside of Clarkson. And we made painful moves to off those contracts. You see, the problem is not DL has been a bad GM. It's that he's made awful moves. But people want more moves to happen. It is a perpetual complaint from every fan base that their FO is not active, whether they are actually active or not.

You think trading for Conley or Rubio way before we had to is slowly reactive? Moving up from Rudy and Mitchell? No, those were very active moves. Didn't make all of them good moves, but they weren't reactive. Reactive was actually doing nothing in the summer of 2018. But whether me make 10, 5, or 0 transactions....people will always whine about not being active enough. You can be "active" or "reactive"...but if you stink, you stink.

 

[Hekate]

The defensive splits being so similar just help show how disruptive he is... just want people to know he's an elite perimeter defender... not just a hustler Ellijah Millsap type.

The interesting thing is he could be used in multiple positions on or off ball and can guard 1-3. He has a definite NBA skill you can bank on. The other stuff is interesting and if he refines/develops he's got potential for more.

I wouldn't call Matisse elite on-ball defender either so there may be a difference in how we view it. I think their on ball defense is pretty much the same but Matisse's range of impact is much larger and that makes him kinda special.

 

[KqWIN]

Wait... every team has bad players that are worse than shaq... every team has passed on shaq (not true but I'll humor you) so there must be something wrong with him because these teams are all more competent than us... This seems circular.

There are just some front offices that are bad... every team passes on good players in the draft every year. They are flawed in their evaluations. i don't think Shaq is out there murdering baby seals... I think they are just much more comfortable trusting bigger sample sizes and guys like Shaq don't have pedigree and have to prove it over a longer period of time.

Its why a team gives the full MLE to a backup 5 when their best player is a 5 and they just drafted a 5. They like the comfort of the proven guy.

I seriously do not know what you're trying to say here. I will say this as plainly as possible:

You can't say the lack of a certain move is Jazz specific when every team in the league is also making the same exact decision.

 

[KqWIN]

HH has already mentioned this that it's not about Shaq. We have a very specific weakness. And there are very specific available improvements we can make, but we refuse to do so. Shaq just happens to be one of them. But we can't bemoan nobody else picking up Shaq as an indicator when we're currently keeping a guy who we want Shaq to replace, who would be out of the league if we waived him. That logic just isn't consistent. We can't play both sides of the fence.

It doesn't matter if it's Shaq or any other player available. The point is exactly the same. If a player is unsigned, you cannot attribute that to being Jazz specific. Every team in the league is making that decision.

If you really mean to say that the Jazz are the only team in the league that should interest in Shaq or any other player for X, Y, and Z....I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

NBA GMs just prefer name brands... its why Jerami Grant gets 3/60M when teams should be looking for the next Jerami Grant and spending in a more prudent manner.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I seriously do not know what you're trying to say here. I will say this as plainly as possible:

You can't say the lack of a certain move is Jazz specific when every team in the league is also making the same exact decision.

You said... Every team has guys like NWG that are probably worse than Shaq... you also saying that if all the teams are passing on a guy its a problem with him... when every team has guys that aren't good. Sounds like a league problem the way you set it up. Its a circular argument.

It is also likely that he has offers at the minimum and is hoping something better comes along.

At this point I have no interest in discussing it further... I am comfortable saying that if all 30 gms pass on Shaq that they are wrong... full stop.

 

[KqWIN]

You said... Every team has guys like NWG that are probably worse than Shaq... you also saying that if all the teams are passing on a guy its a problem with him... when every team has guys that aren't good. Sounds like a league problem the way you set it up. Its a circular argument.

It is also likely that he has offers at the minimum and is hoping something better comes along.

At this point I have no interest in discussing it further... I am comfortable saying that if all 30 gms pass on Shaq that they are wrong... full stop.

I already said this, I would sign Shaq in a heartbeat. I thought he would be a BAE guy this summer. I don't agree with the league on him either.

The point was that if every team is passing on him, it can't be a Jazz specific reason why we're passing on him. There is something we don't know that it causing him to have no contract. Whether that's him taking his time on different offers, holding out for something more, or every team does not want him on any contract. It's not some tendency of the Utah Jazz FO that has resulted in him without a contract. If you think that's the case, you're just whining to whine about the Jazz.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I wouldn't call Matisse elite on-ball defender either so there may be a difference in how we view it. I think their on ball defense is pretty much the same but Matisse's range of impact is much larger and that makes him kinda special.

I think both guys are elite perimeter defenders and its tough to say matisse has a bigger range of impact when their "do ****" numbers are either the same or favor Shaq (sample size I know).

The on/off numbers heavily favor Shaq in the argument... so the impact you are giving him credit for is strictly based on the eye test. I'm fine with that. Shaq's team was 8 pts better per 100 possessions with him on the floor and had a defensive rating of 103... Matisse was only 1.2 pts better and they were a 109 with him on the floor and he obviously plays with much better defensive talent.

 

[infection]

I already said this, I would sign Shaq in a heartbeat. I thought he would be a BAE guy this summer. I don't agree with the league on him either.

The point was that if every team is passing on him, it can't be a Jazz specific reason why we're passing on him. There is something we don't know that it causing him to have no contract. Whether that's him taking his time on different offers, holding out for something more, or every team does not want him on any contract. It's not some tendency of the Utah Jazz FO that has resulted in him without a contract. If you think that's the case, you're just whining to whine about the Jazz.

I’m not certain why what anyone else is doing is relevant, though. Nobody else wanted Ingles and Royce. So what? If your wife slept with the plumber, does it matter if he slept with half the neighborhood’s wives as well, or are you just trying to whine about your wife?

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

I already said this, I would sign Shaq in a heartbeat. I thought he would be a BAE guy this summer. I don't agree with the league on him either.

The point was that if every team is passing on him, it can't be a Jazz specific reason why we're passing on him. There is something we don't know that it causing him to have no contract. Whether that's him taking his time on different offers, holding out for something more, or every team does not want him on any contract. It's not some tendency of the Utah Jazz FO that has resulted in him without a contract. If you think that's the case, you're just whining to whine about the Jazz.

I'm saying there are several bad assumptions here...

1- that every team is passing him
2- that teams are right when they move together in passing on a guy
3- there is something we don't know about him.


He is likely weighing some different offers. If that is the case it is rational to think the Jazz could and should step in with something better.

I am not whining about him specifically but that we don't bring in someone else with a better shot at contributing. Like if Mike goes down for the season who are you more comfortable with... Neto or NWG? Neto would cost the same amount. The only reason we hang on to him is he's DL pet project.

Its just ****ing maddening that for two years I said they should decline TB's option and folks here defend how he is getting better and look at the G League numbers and yada yada. But we hold on to him as a DL pet project. Then we pay to dump him. The only reason DL is keeping NWG here is he is a pet project and its easier than doing something else. But again JazzFanzers are all "lolz this aint about basketball reference and DL is unquestionably doing the right thing all the time".

I apologize that I have a brain and don't trust the front office in every aspect and am not afraid to say it.