Convince Me

[Red]

So you hate all the Trump supporters you do know? The friends, family members or coworkers that support him? They’re all worthy of hate?

Speaking for myself, nope. My best friend voted for Trump. And my friend is a very good man. Strong moral compass. Goes out of his way to help people, and in so many ways. During the 2016 campaign, we had a couple of rather heated exchanges. We both came to an unspoken agreement to never talk politics with each other again. I've often wondered how he feels about policies that Trump has implemented that I know my friend has to be aghast at, I'm thinking specifically of environmental policies. But I will not ask him.

I believe, and we had a thread here about this a few years ago, that liberals and conservatives have fundamentally different psychologies. There may even be differences in brain structure. Several studies in that specific aspect. My point being that in the age old nature vs. nurture debate, some of our differences may be by nature. I grew up, and have always lived, in one of America's liberal bastions. But the rural areas of my tiny state are conservative. And it would not take much study to realize part of our great divide is in fact a rural vs. urban divide. These things I mention might be considered in trying to understand why we are living at a time when American vs American is the predominant theme.

I think Thriller does alienate those who don't share his beliefs, and it never helps to belittle or attack personally one's opponent. I know I have certainly slipped at times, in that regard. But, like it or not, politics is the art of compromise. We should regain that realization before we are literally at each other's throats.

 

[gandalfe]

So you hate all the Trump supporters you do know? The friends, family members or coworkers that support him? They’re all worthy of hate?

That's a radical interpretation of the text.

 

[Hotdog]

That's a radical interpretation of the text.

Weird. So now you dont support radical interpretation of speech?

Just one second ago you had no problem radicalizing what Trump has said.

 

[Archie Moses]

Speaking for myself, nope. My best friend voted for Trump. And my friend is a very good man. Strong moral compass. Goes out of his way to help people, and in so many ways. During the 2016 campaign, we had a couple of rather heated exchanges. We both came to an unspoken agreement to never talk politics with each other again. I've often wondered how he feels about policies that Trump has implemented that I know my friend has to be aghast at, I'm thinking specifically of environmental policies. But I will not ask him.

I believe, and we had a thread here about this a few years ago, that liberals and conservatives have fundamentally different psychologies. There may even be differences in brain structure. Several studies in that specific aspect. My point being that in the age old nature vs. nurture debate, some of our differences may be by nature. I grew up, and have always lived, in one of America's liberal bastions. But the rural areas of my tiny state are conservative. And it would not take much study to realize part of our great divide is in fact a rural vs. urban divide. These things I mention might be considered in trying to understand why we are living at a time when American vs American is the predominant theme.

I think Thriller does alienate those who don't share his beliefs, and it never helps to belittle or attack personally one's opponent. I know I have certainly slipped at times, in that regard. But, like it or not, politics is the art of compromise. We should regain that realization before we are literally at each other's throats.

This is a really good post imo.

 

[gandalfe]

Weird. So now you dont support radical interpretation of speech?

Just one second ago you had no problem radicalizing what Trump has said.

A) I never said "Trump". The fact that you knew that's who I was talking about about really says a lot about him, doesn't it?
B) "I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it, you can do anything ... grab them by the *****. You can do anything."
C) “Yes, I think there’s blame on both sides. And you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides.”

 

[babe]

Weird. So now you dont support radical interpretation of speech?

Just one second ago you had no problem radicalizing what Trump has said.

Sorry if I missed most of this. Only read the first page of this thread.

I spend most of my time in heavily Dem, even radical socialist enclaves. I do business with lots of Thrillers. I need to understand how they are functioning.

Thriller is not unusual for his passion or commitment. He is in the education field where he deals with a lot of bias against him from his students, I'm sure..... being in Utah. I've known people with "Utah Fever" for decades. "Utah Fever" is a sense of frustration and isolation that develops from being in Utah, dealing with conservatives..... well, sort of conservatives..... people who are really "volunteer socialists" who believe it's just evil managers that make progressive socialism go rotten. It's fine for people to work together, to all think the same stuff, and be told what to do and why. Anyone who doesn't get the "True Authority" schema is just so much the outsider.

It's enough to make you go nuts, if you're not "in the right crowd".

In the Bay area, anyone who isn't in "the right crowd" is just irrelevant, a moron, blind, stupid, or uninformed. Someone who needs to be taught, and expected to accept the true light. Pity instead of frustration, or "hate".
Mormonism is the birthplace of progressive views. I'm perfectly certain that Karl Marx, when being tasked to invent a philosophical and political challenge to the dire threat of American values spreading across the world in an unmanageable conflagration of peasants with pitchforks, tearing polite and prosperous society apart at the seams, must certainly have encountered some Mormon elders speaking from soapboxes in the busy corners of London, preaching "Come to Zion".

The whole idea of mankind being well-managed by benevolent Authoritians must be particularly appealing to every well-educated do-gooder and public school teacher. And any kind of non-compliance is just intolerable.

So Thriller should just go to San Jose to teach, and the whole "hate" problem will just dissolve into blissful conformity to established wisdom.

Honestly, it's just the bully-pulpit of teaching kids he's trying to bring in here. It's the same sort of passion Trump has being President. I'm sure the kids try very hard to mind him in his class, and save their snickers for the halls.

I remember having a teacher like Thriller in the eighth grade. It was a spectacle to behold. So well-meaning. So Right.... I mean So Politically Correct..... dammit we've corrupted our language so we can't even use words with accurate meanings anymore. I was so ashamed of how the kids worked on their teacher's nerves, I tried to be nice to him.

 

[Getting Traded]

Open challenge. Forum wide. Convince me. I thrive on challenge.

How is The Thriller not hateful to the right, republicans and conservatives. Hate is the key word.

I don’t make these statements about anyone else. I’m clearly the outlier. That by itself is cause for reflection. At the least. How can it not be if anyone attempts any level of intellectual honesty?

But my evidence is his post history by itself. Constant anti right, and trump, spamming. 24/7. Advocating financial hardship for “trumpers” to teach them a lesson. Calling Bush a demagogue. Calling 10s of millions of Americans racist and sexist... go read it. Literally, it’s all there.

Again. I openly admit. I’m the extreme outlier here. No one else has this stance, at least not openly. Only me. So what the ****? It has to be me right?

So gauntlet thrown. I’m listening. And will honestly try to do my best to be open and thoughtful.

Show me better.

Thriller is not hateful to the right. He simply is pointing out the fallacies and incorrect positions taken by the right. I agree with most of his positions, though I'm a stronger believer that many, not all, conspiracy theories are correct in their assumptions. He tends to avoid such conspiracy positions. The world today is filled with so many ideas that it is difficult to sort out the truth from the misinformation, the disinformation (and there's a lot of this) which intentionally is posited to confuse us, and general assumptions from unqualified people based on misinformation and disinformation -- the MSM and government do not help either because they either provide incomplete information or out right lies. It's not easy to know what the truth is today unless you're an eyewitness to it.

 

[babe]

Speaking for myself, nope. My best friend voted for Trump. And my friend is a very good man. Strong moral compass. Goes out of his way to help people, and in so many ways. During the 2016 campaign, we had a couple of rather heated exchanges. We both came to an unspoken agreement to never talk politics with each other again. I've often wondered how he feels about policies that Trump has implemented that I know my friend has to be aghast at, I'm thinking specifically of environmental policies. But I will not ask him.

I believe, and we had a thread here about this a few years ago, that liberals and conservatives have fundamentally different psychologies. There may even be differences in brain structure. Several studies in that specific aspect. My point being that in the age old nature vs. nurture debate, some of our differences may be by nature. I grew up, and have always lived, in one of America's liberal bastions. But the rural areas of my tiny state are conservative. And it would not take much study to realize part of our great divide is in fact a rural vs. urban divide. These things I mention might be considered in trying to understand why we are living at a time when American vs American is the predominant theme.

I think Thriller does alienate those who don't share his beliefs, and it never helps to belittle or attack personally one's opponent. I know I have certainly slipped at times, in that regard. But, like it or not, politics is the art of compromise. We should regain that realization before we are literally at each other's throats.

In cities, or any perceived crowd, the thinking changes, even if you are self-reliant and perfectly capable of functioning on your own. You need to know what the herd is thinking, and you have to fit in somehow. Perfectly good socialists buy houses or estates in the country and just go there to be "real", and drive into town to be "progressive". I honestly believe that if we bussed city folks to a rural voting booth, they'd vote conservative. I'm trying to get Biden to sponsor that bill.

I'm an extreme example of this. In Nowhere, NV I'm Mr. Hide, and in Berkeley CA I'm Dr. Jackyl. I have to be understandable. If I fail to mind my manners I'll be Dr. Jackass.

yah, some don't bother to take off the coveralls and shine the shoes, but mostly we do what needs doing to keep interactions "standard".

I think it's elbow room that determines the Privileges we take with opinions.

 

[babe]

Thriller is not hateful to the right. He simply is pointing out the fallacies and incorrect positions taken by the right. I agree with most of his positions, though I'm a stronger believer that many, not all, conspiracy theories are correct in their assumptions. He tends to avoid such conspiracy positions. The world today is filled with so many ideas that it is difficult to sort out the truth from the misinformation, the disinformation (and there's a lot of this) which intentionally is posited to confuse us, and general assumptions from unqualified people based on misinformation and disinformation -- the MSM and government do not help either because they either provide incomplete information or out right lies. It's not easy to know what the truth is today unless you're an eyewitness to it.

When I've been on the scene of "news", I've always been pretty disappointed with the reporting.

In fact, it's been obvious to me that the reporting is purposed..... meaning the editor or manager of the newspaper or station pretty well "manages" the public. It's like our media is a sort of Priest caste who devoutly and benevolently want to establish their faith.

Anyone with direct knowledge of the facts, who tries to counter the Faith, is a nutjob with a "Conspiracy Theory". Media and Public Schools.....manager class folks.

It takes people about thirty seconds glancing at the boobtube over their morning joe and news rag to get their worldview for the day, and know what to think of it all. You just absorb the Authorized Version, and fit in with everyone.

@Red: The Political Divide you talk about has more to do with people listening to the cows in the pasture and missing the newscast than actual beliefs. Or any thinking at all......

We moo with the herd.

 

[Stoked]

That's a radical interpretation of the text.

It’s not an interpretation. It’s a question. Should have started it with “So, do you...”.

Given their support for such a man, are those you know who support him worthy of hate?

 

[LogGrad98]

It’s not an interpretation. It’s a question. Should have started it with “So, do you...”.

Given their support for such a man, are those you know who support him worthy of hate?

This becomes a slippery slope. Clinton was a womanizer accused also of sexual assault and harassment. Was everyone who supported him worthy of hate? In my circle of acquaintances there were quite a few who voted for Trump, including my father who I consider to be one of if not the best person I've ever known. I don't think any of them truly support Trump now, but even if they did they aren't deserving of hate. That's the big problem now imo, the divide driven in no small part by the mob mentality of social media wherein regular folks use the veil of anonymity to attack, vilify, and destroy anything they disagree with. Politics is the art of compromise, but when the constituencies want blood more than compromise what does that lead the politicians to do instead? We're in a very bad place in American politics imo, largely driven by people that believe that hate is the answer. People like the person who is the topic of this thread, tbh.

 

[Jack Strop]

TuffTiger was such an agreeable fellow. What changed?

 

[Getting Traded]

I think Thriller has a solid grasp of history and political science. And I do think such an education helps in judging current events and the state of health of our nation. He seems to be fully engaged in American current events. That kind of focus is not for everyone, it's not for Framer, for instance, but if you enjoy history and the social sciences, it's pretty hard to sleep through such a time. And I think Trump can make it easy to be fully engaged. For or against. The anger, sarcasm, and frustration on Thriller's part reflect that full engagement. No minced words and no love for the Republican Party. I see it as righteous anger more then hatred.

If you know you're right, you can choose to mince words, so as to not alienate fellow Americans too much. Or you can say "screw it, I'm telling it like it is". I think it's better to show a little diplomacy, even when you know you're right. Sure it's arrogant to "know" you're right, but we stand or fall on how we speak up for right and wrong, as we see it. Thriller believes he knows the right and wrong of these times, he doesn't care to mince his words. These are tough, tough times. There will be righteous indignation from all quarters.

I do know there's more then one point of view, and I also know that today just seems to be the most divisive and emotionally charged time I have experienced, as an American, in my life, to date. And I ask myself "how the hell can today be worse then the Vietnam War era?" I'm thinking maybe it's the existence of social media. It may be that social media makes today seem more "American against American" then the Vietnam era did, whether it truly is, or not. And all these thread conversations are taking place on social media, not in one of our living rooms, and I suspect that makes a difference, both in how we perceive someone, and in how we present our own personas.

In my opinion, it is worse than the Vietnam era because the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, and the Internet have basically suspended the Fourth Amendment, corporate America has greater control of the government, and the wealth divide has sharply increased. Inflaming the situation is a President who is a racist and misogynist, a self-centered egotist with no morality but the bottom line, a man who has incited division in the country, and encouraged white supremacist nut jobs to use their weapons in defense of their country -- I've heard some of these wackos say they will take up arms if Trump is not re-elected. When in the history of our country has any such thing ever even be contemplated among the citizenry?

That being said, I believe Russiagate is merely a ruse created by the Democrats to impeach Trump. The DNC is merely a tool of Wall Street. Neither party's leadership is working for the best interests of the people or the nation.

 

[Gameface]

In my opinion, it is worse than the Vietnam era because the Patriot Act, Homeland Security, and the Internet have basically suspended the Fourth Amendment, corporate America has greater control of the government, and the wealth divide has sharply increased. Inflaming the situation is a President who is a racist and misogynist, a self-centered egotist with no morality but the bottom line, a man who has incited division in the country, and encouraged white supremacist nut jobs to use their weapons in defense of their country -- I've heard some of these wackos say they will take up arms if Trump is not re-elected. When in the history of our country has any such thing ever even be contemplated among the citizenry?

That being said, I believe Russiagate is merely a ruse created by the Democrats to impeach Trump. The DNC is merely a tool of Wall Street. Neither party's leadership is working for the best interests of the people or the nation.

If Trump's morality is the bottom line then he's even less moral.

Trump is a terrible businessman. He was handed around 500,000,000 by daddy and hasn't even kept up with inflation.

 

[Getting Traded]

This becomes a slippery slope. Clinton was a womanizer accused also of sexual assault and harassment. Was everyone who supported him worthy of hate? In my circle of acquaintances there were quite a few who voted for Trump, including my father who I consider to be one of if not the best person I've ever known. I don't think any of them truly support Trump now, but even if they did they aren't deserving of hate. That's the big problem now imo, the divide driven in no small part by the mob mentality of social media wherein regular folks use the veil of anonymity to attack, vilify, and destroy anything they disagree with. Politics is the art of compromise, but when the constituencies want blood more than compromise what does that lead the politicians to do instead? We're in a very bad place in American politics imo, largely driven by people that believe that hate is the answer. People like the person who is the topic of this thread, tbh.

I didn't vote for Trump, but I had no idea that he would even be close to what he has turned out to be. I just never paid much attention to him, ignored those complaints about his womanizing as they have become so commonplace, and just thought he was an egomaniac, a patriotic guy who actually wanted to drain the swamp when what he did was turn it into a cesspool

 

[One Brow]

Individually it can be fair. People like Trump, and McConnell, are deserving. Are they not? But 10s of millions? When you know nothing about them? Not even their names?

How is that not a major red flag?

I agree that hating millions of people is a tricky thing. I've never met a guard at a concentration camp; do I hate them? Just the ones at death camps? Do I hate all serial killers? Can you express hatred at just facets of a person, while understanding each of us is so complex that most people have attributes to love and attributes to hate, that we are all minutes specks in a universe grasping at understanding the eddys of our existence? Can I hate just the "killer" part of serial killers, while not hating the other parts of them?

Mind you, I don't know if that's how The Thriller feels. Perhaps he has no nuance, and hates either the whole person or none of the person. However, it's just possible that he hates aspects of people, and then his passion makes it read as if he hates the whole person.

I have no opinion on whether The Thriller should be receiving infractions, I leave that to our humble moderators.

I also recognize that our similar political views are likely coloring my opinions, and I understand those who think I may be going too easy on The Thriller.

 

[Stoked]

I agree that hating millions of people is a tricky thing. I've never met a guard at a concentration camp; do I hate them? Just the ones at death camps? Do I hate all serial killers? Can you express hatred at just facets of a person, while understanding each of us is so complex that most people have attributes to love and attributes to hate, that we are all minutes specks in a universe grasping at understanding the eddys of our existence? Can I hate just the "killer" part of serial killers, while not hating the other parts of them?

Mind you, I don't know if that's how The Thriller feels. Perhaps he has no nuance, and hates either the whole person or none of the person. However, it's just possible that he hates aspects of people, and then his passion makes it read as if he hates the whole person.

I have no opinion on whether The Thriller should be receiving infractions, I leave that to our humble moderators.

I also recognize that our similar political views are likely coloring my opinions, and I understand those who think I may be going too easy on The Thriller.

Your justification for group based hate is using examples of hating serial killers? If you have to resort to outlandish extremes doesn't that tell you something?

Come on man...

Yes, you can hate something someone does, says or believes without hating the person. I’ve seen no evidence that is the case for this specific discussion. If it were they’d be posts defending or complimenting other aspects on occasion right?

 

[Archie Moses]

I agree that hating millions of people is a tricky thing. I've never met a guard at a concentration camp; do I hate them? Just the ones at death camps? Do I hate all serial killers? Can you express hatred at just facets of a person, while understanding each of us is so complex that most people have attributes to love and attributes to hate, that we are all minutes specks in a universe grasping at understanding the eddys of our existence? Can I hate just the "killer" part of serial killers, while not hating the other parts of them?

Mind you, I don't know if that's how The Thriller feels. Perhaps he has no nuance, and hates either the whole person or none of the person. However, it's just possible that he hates aspects of people, and then his passion makes it read as if he hates the whole person.

I have no opinion on whether The Thriller should be receiving infractions, I leave that to our humble moderators.

I also recognize that our similar political views are likely coloring my opinions, and I understand those who think I may be going too easy on The Thriller.

You just compared Trump supporters to serial killers and concentration camp guards.

Lmfao.

 

[One Brow]

Your justification for group based hate is using examples of hating serial killers? If you have to resort to outlandish extremes doesn't that tell you something?

Actually, I meant that in the opposite way. Even in the case of the most extreme circumstances, how do I know it is right to hate these people? If they are genuinely insane, for example, shouldn't I be showing compassion instead of hate?

Yes, you can hate something someone does, says or believes without hating the person. I’ve seen no evidence that is the case for this specific discussion. If it were they’d be posts defending or complimenting other aspects on occasion right?

You could be right. I don't know what's in The Thriller's mind, or what his day-to-day interactions are like. His posting is definitely one-sided, and I agree with you saying that he posts a lot of hate.

 

[One Brow]

You just compared Trump supporters to serial killers and concentration camp guards.

Lmfao.

No, I don't think so, although it's true enough that we run concentration camps currently for some immigrants, so those who support Trump are concentration camp supporters. However, that was completely not my point.