Don/Rudy ESPN Article

[JimLes]

Neither guy is an asshat and both guys are more committed to winning than AK was.

Neither of them have had close to the impact on the W/L column that AK had in his prime. Hell, neither of them had his advanced stats from when he was in the dog house. No amount of subjective "eye-tests" can change that.

That's not the point, though. The point is that we did everything to placate Williams and he still wanted out. We treated AK like crap, and he still wanted to be here. It was the same with Hayward, and it was the same a few years later with Favors. It worked this way with many other players on many other teams around the league.

If a guy doesn't want to be someplace long term, there is nothing you can do except hamstring your own future by giving him what you think he wants. And you can tell if he wants to stay by the way he acts and talks and by whether he actually lets it come down to a "last-moment decision".

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

Neither of them have had close to the impact on the W/L column that AK had in his prime. Hell, neither of them had his advanced stats from when he was in the dog house. No amount of subjective "eye-tests" can change that.

That's not the point, though. The point is that we did everything to placate Williams and he still wanted out. We treated AK like crap, and he still wanted to be here. It was the same with Hayward, and it was the same a few years later with Favors. It worked this way with many other players on many other teams around the league.

If a guy doesn't want to be someplace long term, there is nothing you can do except hamstring your own future by giving him what you think he wants. And you can tell if he wants to stay by the way he acts and talks and by whether he actually lets it come down to a "last-moment decision".

Rudy is more impactful on winning... already has two seasons at 14+ win shares... AK's highest season was 11. Rudy will eclipse AK in total win shares for his career in the next season or two. He is way more impactful than AK... not really all that close.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

A couple things:

1. I think perhaps he was referring to DWill rather than AK (not that I agree).
2. The Conley thing is interesting. Overall, I supported it at the time because we needed to do something. However, we were in that situation precisely because of DL's preoccupation with "keeping the powder dry." It's like how I recently had to cancel a trip to the UK and, instead of a refund, I just got credit to use on United. I have two years to use the credit before it expires. I could wait for the right deal to come along, not like anything I see, or not find any deals to the UK that are as good as I originally got, but if I continue to be that rigid and wait long enough, eventually a weekend trip to Phoenix is going to be looking like a good deal when I compare that to it expiring and getting nothing.

It was always the wrong idea that DM needs a pg next to him. Ingles essentially can be the PG with DM being the main creator. With Bojan and Royce starting instead of Ricky and Favs there should be lots of space. That lineup kills it and I think everyone eats in that lineup.

Improve the bench or look for a better wing than Royce (though he fills the 3 and D roles so so well) or a younger version of what Joe Ingles brings. Unless you add a superstar wing like PG or Kawhi I think that is kind of the ideal lineup. Mike can come off the bench (next year when we are healthy) or we should trade him. He is the least efficient shooter we have in our top 8 players... He is treated like a priority because "the best version of this team has Mike Conley being Mike Conley... I mean he's Mike Conley". I think the only reason to keep making him a priority is so the front office doesn't look bad.

 

[oneye]

"Donovan is receiving more criticism because he’s been a closed book and is starting to look like a snake finding a way to rack up excuses and plant seeds to leave."

That's exactly what I'm talking about. There is no proof of this. You and Tim and others are simply talking out of their collective asses.

How many times must Donovan say he's ready to go back to work? Must he publicly send Rudy flowers to make you happy? "League sources" don't mean anything.

Donovan has the right to be a closed book. His teammate acted like a moron and probably gave him the same pandemic disease that is scary enough to keep Ariza, Avery Bradley and others away during the restart. If Donovan eventually leaves, it's because moron Jazz fans either blindly take Rudy's side or ignorantly defend racism. Everybody needs to stop stirring the pot....

Sent from my VS995 using JazzFanz mobile app

Lol, no if Donovan leaves it’s because he was looking for excuses to leave by attaching things to the fanbase that exist everywhere and are not unique. If he don’t like this drama just wait tell he gets to NY or a bigger market. And yes league sources always mean something, where there’s smoke there’s fire and I can assure you Tim has more connections to know more than you in regards to the dude.

 

[oneye]

Some of you claim that Donovan is immature and side with Rudy. Maybe he is but I think Rudy is definitely immature as well. He behaved like a teenage clown touching those microphones at the press conference and cried in public about all star snub.

I think everyone agrees they both are.

 

[Handlogten's Heros]

So DM liked this tweet... he consistently likes tweets he wants to remember and uses them as fuel.

 

[oneye]

Neither of them have had close to the impact on the W/L column that AK had in his prime. Hell, neither of them had his advanced stats from when he was in the dog house. No amount of subjective "eye-tests" can change that.

That's not the point, though. The point is that we did everything to placate Williams and he still wanted out. We treated AK like crap, and he still wanted to be here. It was the same with Hayward, and it was the same a few years later with Favors. It worked this way with many other players on many other teams around the league.

If a guy doesn't want to be someplace long term, there is nothing you can do except hamstring your own future by giving him what you think he wants. And you can tell if he wants to stay by the way he acts and talks and by whether he actually lets it come down to a "last-moment decision".

I don’t think we know that Donovan’s that guy yet, but you do have to pay attention to little things. Everyone here, be honest, out of the two, of they were both UFA this fall, who would be more likely to leave? I think we all know that answer at heart. I’m not saying that’s for sure, but I am saying his vibe hasn’t been great of late.

 

[oneye]

So DM liked this tweet... he consistently likes tweets he wants to remember and uses them as fuel.

I saw this.....but I’m not exactly sure what to take away from it.

 

[JimLes]

Rudy is more impactful on winning... already has two seasons at 14+ win shares... AK's highest season was 11. Rudy will eclipse AK in total win shares for his career in the next season or two. He is way more impactful than AK... not really all that close.

I was talking about Williams and Mitchell. And WS skew heavily towards centres.

 

[JimLes]

I don’t think we know that Donovan’s that guy yet, but you do have to pay attention to little things. Everyone here, be honest, out of the two, of they were both UFA this fall, who would be more likely to leave? I think we all know that answer at heart. I’m not saying that’s for sure, but I am saying his vibe hasn’t been great of late.

This is exactly the point I've been trying to make. We don't know if he's that guy, but I'm not liking the vibes this season. And there were similar vibes with Williams and Hayward, but all of us on this board would try to brush them off. You know, he's just a little surly. He's socially awkward so he comes off as not all that committed. He's just testing the market but will resign with us. We made excuses because we didn't want to believe it. We wanted to think every new star we got was either a Stockton(unwavering loyalty) or Malone(huffs and puffs, but his heart would never let him leave).

We are a small-market franchise. We are constantly at risk of losing good players, and we can't just magically recover from massive screw ups or keep screwing up like we're the Lakers or the Knicks. Williams fiasco took us from winning 20 playoff games in 4 seasons to not winning another playoff game for 7 years. We were damn lucky things worked out the way they did after Hayward left. If we have to pick between our two star players, we can't afford to pick the wrong one because we then lose both.

 

[oneye]

This is exactly the point I've been trying to make. We don't know if he's that guy, but I'm not liking the vibes this season. And there were similar vibes with Williams and Hayward, but all of us on this board would try to brush them off. You know, he's just a little surly. He's socially awkward so he comes off as not all that committed. He's just testing the market but will resign with us. We made excuses because we didn't want to believe it. We wanted to think every new star we got was either a Stockton(unwavering loyalty) or Malone(huffs and puffs, but his heart would never let him leave).

We are a small-market franchise. We are constantly at risk of losing good players, and we can't just magically recover from massive screw ups or keep screwing up like we're the Lakers or the Knicks. Williams fiasco took us from winning 20 playoff games in 4 seasons to not winning another playoff game for 7 years. We were damn lucky things worked out the way they did after Hayward left. If we have to pick between our two star players, we can't afford to pick the wrong one because we then lose both.

The thing is, the stuff with Donovan has been over Rudy and stupid comments on social media, and only reflective of the past few months. In February Donovan was at the state high-school basketball games championships. I don’t know that he’s that guy yet, but it’s worth paying attention, especially right now. Up until the stupid comments on social media Donovan was still pretty open on his video game streams that that he was happy here and wanted to be here. The comments upset him, which is honestly just a ridiculous thing to get too worked up over. Like you can’t ever think 100% of people, including in your own fanbase, are going to agree with you 100% of the time. The biggest tell is going to be the contract he signs this summer. 5 year max no options and I’ll feel better about his commitment. Anything but that, it should raise eyebrows and the Jazz should probably start looking to trade him while at his highest possible value. I don’t want that at all btw. Donovan is so good for Utah in so many ways. I want him here forever. But no player has ever not signed the max 5 year extension when offered it under the current CBA, if he doesn’t, it’s a really bad sign. By the time he’s a free agent after that, he should be grown up enough to have worked through the getting so worked up over people on social media phase. Like that tweet he liked about Rudy being more important. Is that him saying I’ll prove you wrong? Is that saying....we’ll see when I’m gone? Or when Rudy’s gone? Like it’s a weird tweet to like.

 

[babe]

I really have my moments when trying to fathom drama queen plays.

I'm more of a guy who just wants the team to win. Shoot the ball, or pass it to someone with a better shot.