Elijah Millsap: Lindsey in exit interview: “if u say one more word, I’ll cut your Black *** and send you back to Louisiana”.


SteakNEggs

Well-Known Member
Words and phrases have both denotative and connotative meanings. If you don't understand this, you don't understand language. If you try to pretend that connotative meanings don't exist, you're perpetuating a fraud on yourself.

Sometimes denotative meanings are much stronger than connotative. Sometimes connotative meanings are stronger than denotative. It depends on the context. But this phrase that Lindsey is accused of saying is clearly one in which the connotative meaning overpowers the denotative.

In the context in which it was said to have been spoken it would connotatively convey something like, "Slavery never really ended. I (as a white man) have the power to do whatever I want with you (as a black man). So you'll shut up and do what you're told."
One of my hispanic buddies/co-worker calls me "white boy" all of the time. I like it and think it's funny but I just wouldn't feel right doing it back to him or another person of color for this very reason. If(IF) DL actually said this it wasn't just buddy buddy, it was malicious.
 


sip

Member
Elijah now says he's never mentioned this to Paul Millsap at any time before, and he doesn't believe that Dennis Lindsey is racist.
So this has been tearing him up for 6 years and yet he never once mentioned it to his brother. That makes no sense. Especially because Paul also knows Lindsey. Elijah would at least ask if that type of thing was normal for Lindsey. The more the comes out the more this looks like Jussie Smollet.
 

Eenie-Meenie

Well-Known Member
Words and phrases have both denotative and connotative meanings. If you don't understand this, you don't understand language. If you try to pretend that connotative meanings don't exist, you're perpetuating a fraud on yourself.

Sometimes denotative meanings are much stronger than connotative. Sometimes connotative meanings are stronger than denotative. It depends on the context. But this phrase that Lindsey is accused of saying is clearly one in which the connotative meaning overpowers the denotative.

In the context in which it was said to have been spoken it would connotatively convey something like, "Slavery never really ended. I (as a white man) have the power to do whatever I want with you (as a black man). So you'll shut up and do what you're told."
I surely understand the concept of connotation -- I am after all an English teacher. But I think that EM took this as racist. And that is what all the falderall about this is -- racism. The problem is that people who are overly sensitive about the term black misinterpret the meaning of how this word is used. In other words, they give a connotation to it that is not the intent of the person using it. Honestly, I think the concept of political correctness that is being forced on us, is disingenuous and hostile.
 

One Brow

Well-Known Member
Well someone else posted an angry face to my first post about not liking cancel culture, then they replied to me saying I'm better than that, so that certainly appeared to be a defense of cancel culture, considering I made no claims about EMs accusation, but rather just that I hate the fact that so many people immediately jump to the guilty conclusion. In fact in that response I was basically told that cancel culture isn't a thing, when the comments on most of these tweets prove it is alive and well. That certainly seemed to be a defense of cancel culture as well.
To the extant that we all select the media we like and generally want to avoid seeing what we don't like, "cancel culture" is everywhere and practiced by everyone. However, the people who go around using the words "cancel culture" are typically not referring to a universal human activity, but what they consider to be the wrong people or the wrong thing to be avoided.

So, I don't consider "cancel culture" something you can attack nor something you can defend. It an equal-opportunity slur, much like "political correctness", void of internal meaning, and it's applications highly dependent on perspective.

I do apologize for engaging what must have seemed like a personal attack. I'll work harder to make clear what I mean, and say i
 

idiot

Well-Known Member
I surely understand the concept of connotation -- I am after all an English teacher. But I think that EM took this as racist. And that is what all the falderall about this is -- racism. The problem is that people who are overly sensitive about the term black misinterpret the meaning of how this word is used. In other words, they give a connotation to it that is not the intent of the person using it. Honestly, I think the concept of political correctness that is being forced on us, is disingenuous and hostile.
Well, then it seems to me that you're engaging in a quest to deny (through erasure of historical context) the relatively clear connotation of this particular (accused) remark, spoken in this particular context.

Whether this historical context should be part of the connotation is not really up to you or me. The history of US society has made it so.

And I think it's not really very hard as a member of this society to recognize that. I daresay that Lindsey, Snyder, and almost anyone around the NBA would recognize this. They're not disputing whether the accused remark is insensitive (as I think they know it is), just whether Lindsey said it.
 

Engorged On Unborn Gore

Well-Known Member
One of my hispanic buddies/co-worker calls me "white boy" all of the time. I like it and think it's funny but I just wouldn't feel right doing it back to him or another person of color for this very reason.
My uncle was a police officer for 35 years in SLC. For the first two of those years, there was another cop who would say “Hey $p1c” every time he saw my uncle. He showed a lot of patience, but no one stood up for him. This was in ~1975.

Eventually they almost came to blows in a morning meeting. Then one of the sergeants finally told this guy to stop. After two years.

A few years later, my uncle wanted to be on the motorcycle squad. Only the guys who wrote the most tickets qualified (don’t ever believe a cop who tells you that they don’t have quotas, they absolutely do).

So my uncle upped his numbers for a couple months. They eventually pulled him aside and informed him that they “already had one Mexican” on the squad, and would not be adding another.

Those events need to be contextualized by what happened when he was a kid. When my mom’s family moved to SLC, they found a house for sale in Sugar House. It was for sale by owner, so my grandfather talked to the owner and they agreed to a sale. But when the owners neighbors found out that my mom‘s family were brown and had a Spanish surname, they started putting pressure on him to reverse the sale.

My grandfather caught wind of this, and rushed to get a loan from a bank so he could pay the balance.

When they started going to church, they discovered that barely anyone would speak to them. All the parents told all the kids to not associate with my mom and her siblings. So while they were able to accomplish something amazing for 1950’s Salt Lake City, they still paid a heavy (and unnecessary) social toll for decades.

So, while it may not be right for a Latino to call a Caucasian “white boy”, it’s not happening in a vacuum. It will never be from the position of power that it would be if it were reversed.

It’s the same for African-Americans and their jabs (playful or otherwise) at Caucasians, reuse of the N-word, Etc.

I hear people complain that it’s not fair that minorities are allowed to insult Caucasians and “own” their own derogatory terms that way when this type of usage has been popularized. But there are layers to this **** that need to be understood in historical context.

It is a small, subcultural unfairness in response to a much larger, 400-year-old system of abuse and cultural destruction.

So when you read Cy, try to understand the context of what he is trying to accomplish. It doesn’t do to simply take offense and go *** for tat. I’m certainly not defending all of his behavior, and he may not be able to reach everyone he wants to with the way he goes about things on this forum.

But even if Milsap is 100% wrong (or lying) an overt effort to listen to Elijah and to vigorously defend him with a take-no-prisoners attitude is probably healthy at this point in our history. What you are actually encountering here is old, national trauma that has been passed on in the form of hatred.
 

Eenie-Meenie

Well-Known Member
Well, then it seems to me that you're engaging in a quest to deny (through erasure of historical context) the relatively clear connotation of this particular (accused) remark, spoken in this particular context.

Whether this historical context should be part of the connotation is not really up to you or me. The history of US society has made it so.

And I think it's not really very hard as a member of this society to recognize that. I daresay that Lindsey, Snyder, and almost anyone around the NBA would recognize this. They're not disputing whether the accused remark is insensitive (as I think they know it is), just whether Lindsey said it.
I have an ax to grind with political correctness because I have said, it is not just and it is hostile. Like I said, what's the difference if someone said he would send their white *** back to Louisiana. It's not a matter of racism, which is what EM is implying, and in fact he mentioned the BLM issue in his other tweets. This applies the double standard that you can call someone white in a derogatory fashion and nothing is said, but if you use black in the same context that it is wrong because of the history of oppression that people of color have faced. I don't agree with that, and that is the source of a lot of divisiveness we are facing in our society. The N-word is a different because of its long history and its connection to slavery and white supremacy. The way we reference people of color, the words we have used have long been a source of confusion -- do we say black, African-American, people of color. I actually wrote a book that discussed this very issue. In that book, I decided to use black because I thought it was more neutral, because not all people of color are African-American. This is the point that you don't seem to understand, and which a lot of people don't understand. I feel political correctness is based in deep-seated, unconscious hostility and often applies a double standard, which is not ethical or fair in my opinion.

I see, however, you are equating the word black with the N-word, which I feel is incorrect. Yes, the N-word does have the history you suggest. But why are you expanding this to the word black. Why is saying someone who is black is black any different that saying someone who is white is white? The next thing I'm going to hear is that I'm preaching white supremacy just because I'm telling the truth. That is ridiculous. So, then all Germans are evil because before they were born, their nation perpetrated the Holocaust. Not really a good comparison, however. But my point is that the words black and white should be neutral terms and only an extreme interpretation makes the word black to describe someone taboo.
 
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Engorged On Unborn Gore

Well-Known Member
I see, however, you are equating the word black with the N-word, which I feel is incorrect. Yes, the N-word does have the history you suggest. But why are you expanding this to the word black. Why is saying someone who is black is black any different that saying someone who is white is white? The next thing I'm going to hear is that I'm preaching white supremacy just because I'm telling the truth.
Our racial constructs have a history that goes back to the Atlantic slave trade. Portuguese slave traders were the first people to use the word “negra” to refer to brown African slaves. So it is absolutely not equal to call Caucasians “white” and Africans “black”.

If you’re going to tell the truth, and stop telling people that you’re “white” to begin with. You’re not. It is a made up term that unnecessarily erases your actual European cultural heritage.
 

Eenie-Meenie

Well-Known Member
Our racial constructs have a history that goes back to the Atlantic slave trade. Portuguese slave traders were the first people to use the word “negra” to refer to brown African slaves. So it is absolutely not equal to call Caucasians “white” and Africans “black”.

If you’re going to tell the truth, and stop telling people that you’re “white” to begin with. You’re not. It is a made up term that unnecessarily erases your actual European cultural heritage.
You are weaponizing words, don't you see that? So what is DL supposed to say, I'm going to send your colorful *** back to Louisiana, does that satisfy you? You're dealing with semantics not actual feelings of prejudice or superiority. Tell me, what how did people in Africa in 1440-something refer to the Portuguese or to each other? Yeah, I know about the Slave Trade. I did my History thesis on it. And it really is a red herring because it does not relate to the point I'm making.
 

SteakNEggs

Well-Known Member
My uncle was a police officer for 35 years in SLC. For the first two of those years, there was another cop who would say “Hey $p1c” every time he saw my uncle. He showed a lot of patience, but no one stood up for him. This was in ~1975.

Eventually they almost came to blows in a morning meeting. Then one of the sergeants finally told this guy to stop. After two years.

A few years later, my uncle wanted to be on the motorcycle squad. Only the guys who wrote the most tickets qualified (don’t ever believe a cop who tells you that they don’t have quotas, they absolutely do).

So my uncle upped his numbers for a couple months. They eventually pulled him aside and informed him that they “already had one Mexican” on the squad, and would not be adding another.

Those events need to be contextualized by what happened when he was a kid. When my mom’s family moved to SLC, they found a house for sale in Sugar House. It was for sale by owner, so my grandfather talked to the owner and they agreed to a sale. But when the owners neighbors found out that my mom‘s family were brown and had a Spanish surname, they started putting pressure on him to reverse the sale.

My grandfather caught wind of this, and rushed to get a loan from a bank so he could pay the balance.

When they started going to church, they discovered that barely anyone would speak to them. All the parents told all the kids to not associate with my mom and her siblings. So while they were able to accomplish something amazing for 1950’s Salt Lake City, they still paid a heavy (and unnecessary) social toll for decades.

So, while it may not be right for a Latino to call a Caucasian “white boy”, it’s not happening in a vacuum. It will never be from the position of power that it would be if it were reversed.

It’s the same for African-Americans and their jabs (playful or otherwise) at Caucasians, reuse of the N-word, Etc.

I hear people complain that it’s not fair that minorities are allowed to insult Caucasians and “own” their own derogatory terms that way when this type of usage has been popularized. But there are layers to this **** that need to be understood in historical context.

It is a small, subcultural unfairness in response to a much larger, 400-year-old system of abuse and cultural destruction.

So when you read Cy, try to understand the context of what he is trying to accomplish. It doesn’t do to simply take offense and go *** for tat. I’m certainly not defending all of his behavior, and he may not be able to reach everyone he wants to with the way he goes about things on this forum.

But even if Milsap is 100% wrong (or lying) an overt effort to listen to Elijah and to vigorously defend him with a take-no-prisoners attitude is probably healthy at this point in our history. What you are actually encountering here is old, national trauma that has been passed on in the form of hatred.
Good post but on the Cy thing, you are in the wrong. His context is hate filled and angry and it kind of ruined a very good point and post of yours. You should have left him out. All I did was say that we should wait for evidence to come out instead of simply jump the gun and yell guilty or innocent. He... had the audacity to call me, someone I've never once even said a word to a "racist sympathizer" and calling me "stupid" for simply asking what Quin has to gain from lying. There's nothing to understand here. One can preach anti-hate and anti-bigotry all they want but him calling me a "racist sympathizer" over nothing is doing the exact same thing he claims he is so high horsedly against. A bigot fighting bigotry. It's not an intelligent way to get a point across and it's obvious he does not have the maturity or the tempurament to have this conversation.

So with all due respect I just don't see how spewing hate like Cy did has any form of context whatsoever. Saying and I quote "I have fun with your wife while bearing the cross while she complains about her racially insentive husband" is downright bigotry in more than one way. What about " Funny coming from a fat slob."? He also went from calling me a "racist sympathizer" for simply saying lets wait and see, to saying "I think it's pretty clear DL is overall good dude".

If DL did say these things than he should be gone and if Quin is sticking up for him, him too, but I refuse to concede that jumping the gun without any true context, evidence, or other player complaints is not extremely dangerous no matter the situation. He went from saying "At the end of the day you should probably just go ahead and fire DL immediately" to once more came out to ""I think it's pretty clear DL is overall good dude".
 

Engorged On Unborn Gore

Well-Known Member
You are weaponizing words, don't you see that?
Telling the truth about history is only a “weapon” if your own assumptions about yourself and society constitute a flimsy myth.
So what is DL supposed to say, I'm going to send your colorful *** back to Louisiana, does that satisfy you?
No, I expect any leader to be just and fair. I expect them to be man enough to lead without relying on insults or anything derogatory.
You're dealing with semantics
No. You are not your construct. Even if these antebellum terms have survived onto our federal forms, it doesn’t make them true. You are English, or German, or French, or whatever. There is no “white” country. Melanin responds genetically to Multi generational proximity to the equator.

as to your point about wondering what the slaves called the slavers 400 years ago, who cares? Owners get the bag of money. Slaves get the shaft.

If all you learned from your history studies are that racial constructs constitute “a game of semantics”, then I hope you go back to school soon.

The white race is a myth that was created to reinforce the power structure that was created by one group of human beings owning the other group.
 

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