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enjoy your 5-6 more years of "decent" jazz team fighting for the 8th playoff spot.

LazyD said:
Even if the case, don't really see any harm in trying
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You don't see the harm in things like trading Alec for the corpse of Andrew Bynum? Or telling our players they shouldn't play as hard? Or benching them because they're playing too well? Or getting rid of all veterans and leaving the young guys to mentor themselves?
 
JimLes said:
Because the Jazz have no control over this. There's no course of action that would ensure the Jazz get the player they want the most. Hell, even the biggest tank would only lead to a 25% chance. I've said it several times, if the draft still worked in such a way that the team with the worst record was simply given the top pick, I would be much more open to all these ideas. But it doesn't. Is trying to change your odds from 16% to 20% or from 20% to 25% really worth the trouble some people are suggesting(trading Alec, benching players, trading vets)?
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The odds in the lottery make tanking an iffy proposition at best. There's no disputing that. I think that the problem that some posters have had with how this season is playing out is that they have 5 young lottery picks on this team in Kanter, Favors, Hayward, Burks and Burke. Ty Corbin's style doesn't really suggest that he has a great handle on developing and using young players. I'd prefer to see any of the Core 5 guys get the bulk of the minutes at the expense of Jefferson and Williams. If they did that, I think that the team would get a better idea of what they really have in all these young players. I don't think that you get there without playing them. That's my opinion.

I don't want to see them trade any of the young players to tank. I don't even necessarily want them to trade Marvin or Jefferson except for the fact that Ty over plays them and I'd like to see DL acquire more assets to either draft a bench or make a blockbuster trade if one ever presents itself. If I felt like they were effectively using Burks, Kanter and Gobert, I wouldn't complain about Marvin and Jefferson's minutes at all. I just don't though.
 
Ellis269 said:
I think that the problem that some posters have had with how this season is playing out is that they have 5 young lottery picks on this team in Kanter, Favors, Hayward, Burks and Burke. Ty Corbin's style doesn't really suggest that he has a great handle on developing and using young players. I'd prefer to see any of the Core 5 guys get the bulk of the minutes at the expense of Jefferson and Williams. If they did that, I think that the team would get a better idea of what they really have in all these young players. I don't think that you get there without playing them. That's my opinion.
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The offense is being run through the 5 players in bold. That isn't really possible unless you bring a couple of them off the bench. Corbin has done a good job of doing just that, while also using player combinations that make sense (Favors/Marvin, Kanter/Evans). This is exactly how you get a better idea of what you really have in all these young players. Further, Burks' minutes are going up overall, while RJ's are going down. Kanter was a complete mess to start the season. We'll see what happens to his minutes when he starts to play consistently well (against the Clips, Favors and Kanter got their first 4th quarter minutes together since Enes's last start).

I too think RJ is being relied on a bit much. He and Marvin have been very efficient scoring off-ball, but Alec is coming around as well. I think Alec will likely be getting 30+ minutes by the end of the season. Hard to say where Kanter will be.
 
JimLes said:
You don't see the harm in things like trading Alec for the corpse of Andrew Bynum? Or telling our players they shouldn't play as hard? Or benching them because they're playing too well? Or getting rid of all veterans and leaving the young guys to mentor themselves?
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Actually, I do see the harm in doing some of those things.

A. I think that Alec Burks could very well be an important part of this team's future. I'd like to see him get a couple of chances to start a game and see how it goes. Even if it means pushing Hayward to the 3 and taking away his value as a bench scorer and spark plug. It doesn't hurt to actually try it to see how well it does or does not work.

B. I think that they should absolutely be playing as hard as they can to win every singe game. But I also think that the focus should be on player development, team chemistry and seeing exactly how all the pieces are able to fit together for the long-term. I don't think that they've done any of those things very well.

C. I don't want to bench anyone for playing too well. Especially Trey Burke. He might be killing out tank, but I think that he needs the minutes - just like Kanter, Burks and Gobert do. Playing young players has never been Ty Corbin's strong suit - even when they're outplaying the veterans. This is a great year to reverse that trend and get them the minutes anyways. There's no reason to be stressing over wins and losses, and yet this team seems to be doing so.

D. Even if the Jazz were to trade Marvin and Jefferson (for quality assets - not just to get rid of them) there's still Biedrins, JLIII and Evans who could fill the same veteran roles that Marvin and Jefferson currently fill. Plus, there's nothing that says that the Jazz don't have to bring back a veteran or two to make the trades work. Those guys then get to help fill those roles. If they don't bring back veteran players, then there's nothing to stop the Jazz from cutting Clark or Harris and signing a veteran player to fill the roster spot and mentor the young guys.
 
GVC said:
The offense is being run through the 5 players in bold. That isn't really possible unless you bring a couple of them off the bench. Corbin has done a good job of doing just that, while also using player combinations that make sense (Favors/Marvin, Kanter/Evans). This is exactly how you get a better idea of what you really have in all these young players. Further, Burks' minutes are going up overall, while RJ's are going down. Kanter was a complete mess to start the season. We'll see what happens to his minutes when he starts to play consistently well (against the Clips, Favors and Kanter got their first 4th quarter minutes together since Enes's last start).

I too think RJ is being relied on a bit much. He and Marvin have been very efficient scoring off-ball, but Alec is coming around as well. I think Alec will likely be getting 30+ minutes by the end of the season. Hard to say where Kanter will be.
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This, is a reasonable response about the whole situation. I can understand that playing Favors/Marvin and Kanter/Evans would be an effective game-plan. I still think that this team should play that Core 5 group together a little bit every game. Now is a perfect time to see how well it does or does not work. They haven't even tried. They don't have to feature it, but they should certainly use it. I'm hoping that Kanter and Burks do what Favors, Burke and Hayward (sort of) have done, which is to play so well that they force the team to have to use them more. Burks seems to be coming around. Kanter hopefully will as well - since he's quite possibly has the highest upside of all the players on the team. I don't want to see the team get rid of any of them until they can see what they can do together and how all the pieces might fit in the future.
 
JimLes said:
You don't see the harm in things like trading Alec for the corpse of Andrew Bynum? Or telling our players they shouldn't play as hard? Or benching them because they're playing too well? Or getting rid of all veterans and leaving the young guys to mentor themselves?
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I don't see any harm in trying to construct as bad a team as possible without doing anything detrimental to the future of the franchise. I'm pretty sure that's what they did/are doing. I also don't think trading RJ and Marvin would destroy the psyche of the young guys. If they couldn't handle it they probably shouldn't be in the NBA.

Becoming a worse team in the short-term is also not limited solely to the four options you listed. I'm sure professional general managers can think of other ways.
 
Ellis269 said:
If I felt like they were effectively using Burks, Kanter and Gobert, I wouldn't complain about Marvin and Jefferson's minutes at all. I just don't though.
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GVC is much more knowledgeable on this point than I am, but even I know enough to see that Burks is being used effectively. I don't see how you could use him better at the expense of veterans. You might be able to use him somewhat better at the expense of Gordon or Trey, but that would defeat the purpose, would it not? Alec has also been playing starter minutes AND closing games. What more could you ask for? Why would another 4 minutes a game be so crucial?

And Kanter is Kanter. He has played below his standards regardless of how he's been used, so right now, Favors is clearly the horse to bet on. Playing Kanter next to Favors not only failed to yield improvements in Kanter's game, it also hurt Derrick. Right now, Derrick plays much better with a stretch four next to him. Unless Kanter can learn to play a stretch four(I believe he might have to down the road), then there's little sense in forcing him to play with Kanter. If we develop Kanter at the expense of Derrick, have we really improved?

Gobert is super raw and there's really no reason to play him right now, seeing as our 4 and 5 positions are okay.

But the real issue here is that people are complaining about minutes given to Marvin and Richard, while blatantly ignoring that none of the allegedly poorly utilized youngsters can replace them. Enes is not a stretch four and he's certainly not a small forward, so you can't really give him either player's minutes. Burks is not a SF either, so how can you play him instead of Richard?
 
JimLes said:
Alec has also been playing starter minutes

Burks is not a SF either, so how can you play him instead of Richard?
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Alec is playing 27 minutes per, which are not starter minutes imo.

Hayward is as much of a small forward as he is a shooting guard
 
fishonjazz said:
Alec is playing 27 minutes per, which are not starter minutes imo.
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Well, la-di-****ing-da. If you don't think those are starter minutes, then surely they must not be. The Spurs then must not have any starters, because they have no one playing more than 30.7 minutes a game. It's just 12 bench players hooping it up down there in San Antone.

Hayward is as much of a small forward as he is a shooting guard
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You should write a nice letter to the Jazz front office telling them that. Make sure you outline how much more expertise you have than the entire FO, who decided a few years ago that his future likely lay at the SG position and started moving his minutes that way accordingly.
 
Just to really add to this idiotic argument that 28 minutes a game isn't starter minutes. Here are some players who play 30 minutes or less. Duncan, Bosh, Hibbert, David West. Pineriders, the lot of them.
 
For some additional context, among players who have played 15+ games:

21 average 36+ minutes (less than 1 per team)
57 average 33+ minutes (just shy of 2 per team)
103 average 30+ minutes (just shy of 3.5 per team)
 
That's what im talkin bout.
30 minutes plus.

This season began and I had hopes of starting lineup of burke burks hayward favors and kanter..... and each one of them getting over 30 minutes per game.

If that would have happened then I would never complain about anything..... we could lose all our games, win em all, or be right in the middle.
But since those conditions are not even close to being met, I will continue to complain and there is nothing ya'll can do to stop me.

Enjoy
 
fishonjazz said:
That's what im talkin bout.
30 minutes plus.

This season began and I had hopes of starting lineup of burke burks hayward favors and kanter..... and each one of them getting over 30 minutes per game.

If that would have happened then I would never complain about anything..... we could lose all our games, win em all, or be right in the middle.
But since those conditions are not even close to being met, I will continue to complain and there is nothing ya'll can do to stop me.

Enjoy
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Couldn't have said it better. Repped.
 
fishonjazz said:
But since those conditions are not even close to being met, I will continue to complain and there is nothing ya'll can do to stop me.
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So, because a couple of the players from the list are playing a couple of minutes a game fewer than 30, that's "conditions are not even close to being met?"

G-d, you're an idiot.
 
JimLes said:
So, because a couple of the players from the list are playing a couple of minutes a game fewer than 30
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Two are not starting and two are not playing 30 minutes per game.
(Kanter at 19 minutes per in his last ten games)

So yup not even close to being met
 
Behold the mesage board of wisdom!
 
fishonjazz said:
Two are not starting and two are not playing 30 minutes per game.
(Kanter at 19 minutes per in his last ten games)

So yup not even close to being met
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Who cares if they're not starting? Why is starting more important than how much you play? And why is 30 the magic number which makes everything okay, but 28 makes it a failure of the season?

And Kanter was given plenty of time this year. It's his own damn fault he's doing jack all with it.

This is like saying you want Favors to average 15-10, then being pissed off because he puts up 14-11.
 
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