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God and Country

Al-O-Meter said:
I'm shocked you post this tacit admission that you've been believing a fantasy and have been posting nonsense trying to convince that a non-reality is reality, but I applaud you for finally seeing the light. I know that admitting you were wrong is not easy. I am happy to finally have you standing shoulder-to-shoulder with me in seeing the reality that Christian Nationalist cuckoos stand alone. They are not the GOP. They do not have much of a voice at all. The reality is they stand alone.
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Lol. The article was about christian conservatives. I guess I can see why you think christian nationalist cuckoos and christian conservatives are the same but I think they are actually different groups.
 
Al-O-Meter said:
I'm shocked you post this tacit admission that you've been believing a fantasy and have been posting nonsense trying to convince that a non-reality is reality, but I applaud you for finally seeing the light. I know that admitting you were wrong is not easy. I am happy to finally have you standing shoulder-to-shoulder with me in seeing the reality that Christian Nationalist cuckoos stand alone. They are not the GOP. They do not have much of a voice at all. The reality is they stand alone.
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All depends on a future I am unable to predict. Christian nationalism is an example of “end stage Christianity”. But the Golden Rule at the heart of the Christian faith is beautiful. Who could oppose such a thought? I’m not saying Christianity is a thing of the past. It really does depend on how much a fascist world view can take hold in the United States. The GOP, under Trump’s control, is trending into that ugliest of world views. Christian nationalism is the ideological substrate to what would be an Americanized fascism. Fascism is always going to take on ugly elements and beliefs endemic to the particular culture and society in which it appears. That’s why it was always foolish and wrong headed to say “Trump is America’s Hitler”.

No, Trump is American to the core, and the fascist elements in his thoughts are born of American history, nobody else’s.

So, I don’t know what you’re really talking about, although I apparently rendered confirmation bias for one of your strongly held beliefs?

And you know, our present reactionary lurch is certainly not the first. Witness the rise of the Nativist Party, aka the Know Nothing Party, in the 1850’s:

IMG_4849.webp

Look familiar? Just substitute illegal aliens making off with the ballot box, rather than Irish Catholics and Germans. Even as late as 1960, people feared JFK would owe alligence to the Pope, not the Constitution.

Some scholars believe modern fascism was born right here. Seeing the original version of the KKK as the first modern fascist organization:

www.nybooks.com

American Fascism: It Has Happened Here | Sarah Churchwell

“When Americans think of dictators they always think of some foreign model,” wrote the anti-fascist journalist Dorothy Thompson in the mid-1930s, but an American dictator would be “one of the boys, and he will stand for everything traditionally American.” And the American people, Thompson added...
www.nybooks.com www.nybooks.com

So, your interpretation is yours, but you’re confused about my own interpretation of early 21st century America. And Christian Nationalism dovetails nicely with an emergent Americanized fascism. Does not mean we’re headed for a full scale fascist lurch and the worst of Project 2025. I can’t predict the future. But I can see influences, and I do know my American history. My interpretations stem from that background.

It would not kill you to use your intelligence to think in depth about issues, and movements in America. Instead, you assume I don’t know the range of beliefs within Christian communities in the United States?? Really?! I posted an article that FITS BEST in this thread. It’s that simple. Doesn’t mean I completely forgot the range of Christian beliefs! No need for you to display the extraordinarily shallow nature of your mind in your reply. You’re reasonably intelligent, from everything I’ve seen.

On the other hand, I guess I could thank you for generating this clarifying reply on my part. Really, I know my American history. What’s new is we are experiencing an epidemic of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, and Trump is a leading example of what that epidemic is doing.
Red knows a hellava lot more than you give Red credit for! lol. I’m so hurt!

Put some thought in! Are gotcha posts that fall flat the best you can do? I know you have a good mind, don’t be so lazy to use it! And if you really are not intelligent enough to keep up, or serious enough to even try, then take a break from replying to me……
 
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Red said:
It would not kill you to use your intelligence to think in depth about issues, and movements in America. Instead, you assume I don’t know the range of beliefs within Christian communities in the United States. I posted an article that FITS BEST in this thread. It’s that simple. Doesn’t mean I completely forgot the range of Christian beliefs! No need for you to display the extraordinarily shallow nature of your mind in your reply. You’re reasonably intelligent, from everything I’ve seen.
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You are giving a known troll, who continues to troll, an awful lot of credit.
 
Red said:
Christian nationalism is an example of “end stage Christianity”.
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Hard disagree. There is nothing supporting the idea that Christian Nationalism is a more advanced stage or the end of anything. The establishment of Vatican City was not the end of Catholicism, and tying religious belief to group rule dates back as far as humans have history. If anything, the establishment of a wall between church and state seems to be the end stage. Before America did it, mixing was all there was. After America did it, governments have become increasingly secular.

Christian Nationalism is a cheap plastic monster your mom found at the dollar store which you are spinning with great delight into the most formidable of threats to the army of heroes arrayed on your bedroom floor. The battle does look like fun, but c’mon. It can’t fly. It doesn’t even have wings.
 
Al-O-Meter said:
Christian Nationalism is a cheap plastic monster your mom found at the dollar store which you are spinning with great delight into the most formidable of threats to the army of heroes arrayed on your bedroom floor. The battle does look like fun, but c’mon. It can’t fly. It doesn’t even have wings.
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I spent half my life studying and teaching the cultural history of the United States. You sound, frankly, like an intellectual pipsqueak. The intellectual history, the cultural history of this nation has been one of the most compelling learning journeys of my life. The MAGA movement is infused with Christian nationalism. And you, in understanding our history, and the cultural streams that feed into our culture and beliefs, are really in over your head. This area is not your area of expertise at all. Here you are claiming I’m making more of the subject, and the movement, then it deserves. Says you. An intellectual pipsqueak who decided to get into a subject that is out of his depth. Nobody, including me, spelled out exactly what the future holds for Christian nationalism. However, it is currently part of our present moment, and I am a cultural historian by training and profession. Now retired, but I have not, nor ever will, retire my intellectual curiosity. It is a subject, a topic current in our historical moment. And I can examine its ramifications without being questioned by the likes of you. I regarded higher education as a good thing in and of itself. I love to learn, and will never stop. Go f**k yourself. You’re anti-intellectual and part of the problem in America today. If you don’t like learning new things, stay the hell out of my threads.
 
Red said:
I spent half my life studying and teaching the cultural history of the United States. You sound, frankly, like an intellectual pipsqueak. The intellectual history, the cultural history of this nation has been one of the most compelling learning journeys of my life. The MAGA movement is infused with Christian nationalism. And you, in understanding our history, and the cultural streams that feed into our culture and beliefs, are really in over your head. This area is not your area of expertise at all. Here you are claiming I’m making more of the subject, and the movement, then it deserves. Says you. An intellectual pipsqueak who decided to get into a subject that is out of his depth. Nobody, including me, spelled out exactly what the future holds for Christian nationalism. However, it is currently part of our present moment, and I am a cultural historian by training and profession. Now retired, but I have not, nor ever will, retire my intellectual curiosity. It is a subject, a topic current in our historical moment. And I can examine its ramifications without being questioned by the likes of you. I regarded higher education as a good thing in and of itself. I love to learn, and will never stop. Go f**k yourself. You’re anti-intellectual and part of the problem in America today. If you don’t like learning new things, stay the hell out of my threads.
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Fantastic post.
 
An intellectual pipsqueak who decided to get into a subject that is out of his depth.…You’re anti-intellectual and part of the problem in America today. If you don’t like learning new things, stay the hell out of my threads.
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This is one of the main reasons why I don’t visit here much anymore. And I’m not the only one. Look at how many other good posters no longer come here. It’s not interesting or fun to frequent this website. It’s overrun with trolls and stupid people posting nonsense. they’re the equivalent to the dumb 13 year old making farting sounds with their armpits in the back of the classroom. I’m sorry, but your stupid posts and conspiracies that you obtain from right wing media sources isn’t equivalent to some of us who have spent years studying these subjects.

I really hope once Trump loses a lot of these people just go away. Some of you “forgotten men” deserve to be forgotten.
 
I thought this article was interesting. Its author, Russell Moore, isn’t exactly a liberal. Those interested can always do a quick google search on him while im sure the same dumb trolls won’t bother reading anything but will run their mouths (as always).

The Bible’s Book of James tells us, “How great a forest is set ablaze by such a small fire! And the tongue is a fire, a world of unrighteousness” (Jas 3:5). The Bible goes on to say that the words we use for other people are not just rhetoric to be deployed against our would-be opponents. The words themselves reveal the moral state of our soul…

Christians have heard for years that we should be “values voters” who can hold the country back from immorality. On many moral issues, Americans of good will can bear with one another as we wrestle through how best to live up to what our conscience tells us is right. Even those of us who base our core principles on the Bible have many issues with much room for disagreement. The Bible tells us to care for the poor but doesn’t set a minimum wage. The Bible tells us to steward the Creation but doesn’t give us a policy paper on renewable energy. The Bible tells us the state should protect its people but doesn’t propose a Pentagon budget.

The cruelty to Haitian immigrants—and with it, the implicit incitement of potential violence—is not one of those debatable issues. And Christians do not need to struggle to figure out what Jesus would have us do here. If we see children sheltering at home because they fear violence, we know that’s wrong. And when we see that this fear comes from the incitement of hatred against those children because of where their parents came from, surely we can smell the brimstone.

www.theatlantic.com

Trump’s Lie Is Another Test for Christian America

If we’re willing to see children terrorized because of a false rumor about Haitian immigrants, we should ask who abducted our conscience, not someone’s pet.
www.theatlantic.com www.theatlantic.com
 
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Red said:
I spent half my life studying and teaching the cultural history of the United States. You sound, frankly, like an intellectual pipsqueak. The intellectual history, the cultural history of this nation has been one of the most compelling learning journeys of my life. The MAGA movement is infused with Christian nationalism. And you, in understanding our history, and the cultural streams that feed into our culture and beliefs, are really in over your head. This area is not your area of expertise at all. Here you are claiming I’m making more of the subject, and the movement, then it deserves. Says you. An intellectual pipsqueak who decided to get into a subject that is out of his depth. Nobody, including me, spelled out exactly what the future holds for Christian nationalism. However, it is currently part of our present moment, and I am a cultural historian by training and profession. Now retired, but I have not, nor ever will, retire my intellectual curiosity. It is a subject, a topic current in our historical moment. And I can examine its ramifications without being questioned by the likes of you. I regarded higher education as a good thing in and of itself. I love to learn, and will never stop. Go f**k yourself. You’re anti-intellectual and part of the problem in America today. If you don’t like learning new things, stay the hell out of my threads.
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He's a troll. And in moments like this his facade falls away and you can see it.
 
LogGrad98 said:
He's a troll. And in moments like this his facade falls away and you can see it.
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Yes, I do agree. It has not always been that evident to me. I tend to prefer granting people the benefit of the doubt where their stated beliefs are concerned. But, over time, I have also seen that he is very much anti-learning. He would never be able to understand something as simple as learning being a good thing in itself. Not advanced for political points. Just knowledge for its own sake, not in interest to jobs or money. If one likes learning, thrives where ideas flow freely, and deeply, then the academic setting is enlivening. It’s not for everyone, but he seems to view the academic world as having hurt American society. Propaganda facturies. Professors wielding ulterior motives.

The God and Country thread is an example of where this aspect of American civilization, the marriage of religion and beliefs about America’s purpose in history, intersect. Present from our earliest beginnings. It can be very interesting to examine our culture and civilization from that perspective. AI-O-Meter neither understands, nor appreciates any of that. He is anti-learning.
 
Red said:
  • I spent half my life studying and teaching the cultural history of the United States.
  • I am a cultural historian by training and profession.
  • I can examine its ramifications without being questioned by the likes of you.
  • You sound, frankly, like an intellectual pipsqueak.
  • really in over your head.
  • Go f**k yourself.
  • You’re anti-intellectual and part of the problem in America today.
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All of that is irrelevant to supporting a silo-constructed idea that all available data falsifies.

Christianity and Christian influence in government is in decline. The election of Donald Trump in 2016 did nothing to forestall America’s falling religiosity.

FL4oc1gUUAEwUWh.png


Christians are not increasingly constructing exclusionary spaces with purity tests, and the spaces that did exist are becoming more open. Forty years ago, only 2% of students in Catholic schools were not Catholic. Today 21% of students at Catholic schools are not Catholic.

https://ncea.org/common/Uploaded files/Who We Are/Data/2023-2024-NCEA-Data-Brief.pdf

Organizations of old that could have been lumped in to the type of thing you are talking about, such as the Ku Klux Klan, were massively powerful in the 1920’s. They had millions of members nationally and the President of the United States was proudly showing KKK propaganda ‘Birth of a Nation’ in the White House. In Indiana alone there were over 250,000 KKK members.

https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-l...oss-rise-and-fall-ku-klux-klan-middle-america

By comparison, during the Trump administration the entire movement consisted of 200 individuals in a park marching from a fountain to a statute with tiki torches who were outnumbered massively at all times by those who opposed them. The tidal change our nation has made from the ugly, awful bigotries that had powerful influence all the way to the White House in the 1920’s to the society we have today only ten decades later is praiseworthy. It isn’t perfect but perfection of people isn’t possible.

Ignoring all of the data showing exactly where we are today as a society to make claims of Christian Nationalism being a threat to sweep America is an idea deserving ridicule. Proponents of that idea rank roughly on par with Bigfoot Hunters.
 
Al-O-Meter said:
Ignoring all of the data showing exactly where we are today as a society to make claims of Christian Nationalism being a threat to sweep America is an idea deserving ridicule.
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I never said it was “a threat to sweep America”. I’m simply noting it is an element present in our society for a very long time. I specifically pointed out that it is an interesting, and very meaningful/insightful subject when studying American civilization at this time. Again, as I pointed out in my last comment, you’re so anti-knowledge, anti-learning, that you don’t even understand that fundamental insight. I really do not know what your problem is, honestly. I started this thread because Christian Nationalism has emerged in the Trump years as an integral component of the MAGA movement.

You seem to have an aversion to any subject that seeks to shed light and insight on historical context. I specifically said I cannot predict the future of Christian Nstionalism. I do know that it is the very type of Americanized ideology that would dovetail nicely as an ideological substrate for an Americanized fascism. I do quite honestly believe that is notable, and certainly worth pointing out. I never predicted, as you claim,that it’s a threat to “sweep America”. I cannot for one instant imagine it as the majority opinion in the near future. Or any distant future. Anymore than 90% of Ameticans joining the KKK.

I do not expect a war against modernity, a war against the 21st century to be successful.

All you’re doing in your latest reply is once again mistaking both my intent in this thread, and the insights I’ve simply tried to provide. I’m not claiming what you say I’m claiming. I did not say Christian Nationalism will triumph and we will be living in a Christian theocracy before long. Not only are you in over your head(and how is that even possible when all I’m doing is illuminating a familiar component of the American experience, since before the era of Christian God-ordained Manifest Destiny? Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend???), but you’re babbling on without paying any attention whatsoever.

Again, I have a deep long life interest in understanding the uniqueness of American civilization. Your responses are the very reason I’ve eventually come to the conclusion that you very much dislike the search for knowledge, period.

I cannot continue to make an effort to reach you. This is ridiculous.
 
Poor video quality, but I find it an interesting subject.

When reactionary movements develop within a society, it’s often insightful to examine others of the beliefs that lend support to such reactionary lurches. None of this comes with predictions on my part.

It’s always good to look for as much context as possible when seeking to understand one’s present moment. As I’ve always been fond of saying: never sleepwalk through that portion of history that is yours to live. I’m always digging for context. That’s just me. I’m always looking for ways to stand outside my own time and place. Now, that’s never completely possible, because we are all products of our time and place. But it’s an effort one can make, just to try and see oneself as others see us. One reason I’ve always sought out the perspective of non-Americans.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXfARxhE34A
 
Red said:
Yes, I do agree. It has not always been that evident to me. I tend to prefer granting people the benefit of the doubt where their stated beliefs are concerned. But, over time, I have also seen that he is very much anti-learning. He would never be able to understand something as simple as learning being a good thing in itself. Not advanced for political points. Just knowledge for its own sake, not in interest to jobs or money. If one likes learning, thrives where ideas flow freely, and deeply, then the academic setting is enlivening. It’s not for everyone, but he seems to view the academic world as having hurt American society. Propaganda facturies. Professors wielding ulterior motives.

The God and Country thread is an example of where this aspect of American civilization, the marriage of religion and beliefs about America’s purpose in history, intersect. Present from our earliest beginnings. It can be very interesting to examine our culture and civilization from that perspective. AI-O-Meter neither understands, nor appreciates any of that. He is anti-learning.
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Agreed.

One minor elaboration, don't think there are no agendas in academia, like any other large organized group. Maybe they aren't entirely overt, but they are there. There are teachers more interested in indoctrination than free exchange of ideas. I've seen it myself in my academic pursuits, and we've seen it through our children. I've had professors who stood in front of the group and said, maybe not in so many words, that their goal was to teach us what to think, the "right" way to think about the topics. Not how you analyze or exchange ideas, but what ideas we should entertain and how we should react to those ideas. We saw the same thing at the secondary level with our own kids. One such project was a I think it was 5th or 6th grade teacher asked my daughter's class to write a letter to the president about the war in iraq. In an of itself the assignment was fine, until we read the instructions, which explicitly instructed the kids to tell the president why they are against the war and why getting involved in iraq was wrong. That's crossing a line to indoctrination.

I'll grant these are likely the minority, but the element exists and that is reason for concern, considering the influence and reach of academics in general.

But I think we can all agree, Al is a troll.
 

MSN

www.msn.com www.msn.com

Republican vice-presidential candidate JD Vance appeared Saturday at a town hall event organized by top Christian nationalist leaders who promote election denialism and portray Vice President Kamala Harris as a “demon.”

The event’s host, Lance Wallnau, who emceed the live event and introduced Vance’s first town hall on the campaign trail, is a leading figure in the fast-growing New Apostolic Reformation, a movement that preaches Christian supremacy through a blend of prophecy and hard-right politics.

Though a campaign official said Vance and Wallnau didn’t speak to each other, Vance’s appearance at Saturday’s event was the latest example of the Trump campaign intersecting with once-fringe figureswho now have wide followings.
 
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