Jazz select Udoka Azubuike with pick 27 & trade Tony Bradley + pick 38 to the Pistons




NUMBERICA

Well-Known Member
I don't think so, necessarily. I think the issue is that for a couple years now the Jazz designed their defensive system to funnel offensive players into Rudy in the paint. It's a fine plan, but it only works when Rudy is on the floor. So there has to be a backup center who can play basically the same defensive role in drop coverage that Rudy does. Favors used to hold down the fort pretty well, especially when you consider he was going against the other team's backups. Tony Bradley and Ed Davis, however, couldn't stop anybody. So I think the Jazz decided they needed to find another defensive big who could imitate Rudy better in order to maintain the same defensive system during the non-Rudy minutes.

You can't have one defensive strategy when Rudy is in the game and another strategy when he's not in the game. Players won't be able to keep it straight and play instinctively.
Teams can do that and it’s how playoff basketball works. Teams that are adaptable have an outsized advantage in those situations and we’re stuck.

I’m not stating that **** WILL go down with Gobert, just saying I think this is a pretty big signal that they’re taking that possibility seriously and making preparations accordingly.

And to be clear, I totally get the hype. Comparing Gobert the prospect vs Udoka and I’m honestly not sure Gobert was clearly more promising. Having both when the Jazz are asset definitely depleted is just... not good asset management.
 

FAILED STATE

Well-Known Member
I don't think so, necessarily. I think the issue is that for a couple years now the Jazz designed their defensive system to funnel offensive players into Rudy in the paint. It's a fine plan, but it only works when Rudy is on the floor. So there has to be a backup center who can play basically the same defensive role in drop coverage that Rudy does. Favors used to hold down the fort pretty well, especially when you consider he was going against the other team's backups. Tony Bradley and Ed Davis, however, couldn't stop anybody. So I think the Jazz decided they needed to find another defensive big who could imitate Rudy better in order to maintain the same defensive system during the non-Rudy minutes.

You can't have one defensive strategy when Rudy is in the game and another strategy when he's not in the game. Players won't be able to keep it straight and play instinctively.
What?? Teams need flexibility when it comes to defensive coverages. That’s ‘neeeeeeeed’.
 

Thee Idiotic Minivan K

Well-Known Member
As a Udoka homer, I’m already on record that if he doesn’t start getting minutes this season, it was a bad pick. One of the reasons this was a great pick is that he make can an impact now.
You realize the center position traditionally takes longer to develop than any other position, you know this, right? Also, the jazz will most likely sign a vet 5 because even they know he may not be ready, even if he is the jazz wasted cap money. Waste of a pick
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
You realize the center position traditionally takes longer to develop than any other position, you know this, right? Also, the jazz will most likely sign a vet 5 because even they know he may not be ready, even if he is the jazz wasted cap money. Waste of a pick
Where are people getting this “might not be ready” crap from? To do what, take over for Rudy? Score 30+ pts? Be the focal point of the offense? He needs to play 10-15 mins. And in that time he needs to play defense, rebound, set screens, and dunk the **** out of the ball. Stuff he's already doing at an elite level.
 

Thee Idiotic Minivan K

Well-Known Member
Where are people getting this “might not be ready” crap from? To do what, take over for Rudy? Score 30+ pts? Be the focal point of the offense? He needs to play 10-15 mins. And in that time he needs to play defense, rebound, set screens, and dunk the **** out of the ball. Stuff he's already doing at an elite level.
You’re an idiot. You have no clue if he is or will be ready to go. It ****ing took TB three ****ing years just to get somewhat into the rotation. Three years to be a bad backup center.

look, I like udoka a lot more than TB, he’s more athletic longer, stronger, probably better in every way except shooting and ft’s, but you can’t just brazenly say you know for sure he’s ready to contribute right away, also since he’s going to be Rudy’s backup, if he does becom a quality player he will leave as soon as he can so he can play more min and make more money. Essentially we drafted and developed him for another team. There’s a reason teams with star centers don’t draft centers in the first round let alone reach for a second round center in the first. It’s a waste of money and team building.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
You’re an idiot. You have no clue if he is or will be ready to go. It ****ing took TB three ****ing years just to get somewhat into the rotation. Three years to be a bad backup center.

look, I like udoka a lot more than TB, he’s more athletic longer, stronger, probably better in every way except shooting and ft’s, but you can’t just brazenly say you know for sure he’s ready to contribute right away, also since he’s going to be Rudy’s backup, if he does becom a quality player he will leave as soon as he can so he can play more min and make more money. Essentially we drafted and developed him for another team. There’s a reason teams with star centers don’t draft centers in the first round let alone reach for a second round center in the first. It’s a waste of money and team building.
Terrific self own. You're the one calling me an idiot while comparing the two.

Then you go on a paragraph long diatribe highlighting their differences and claiming that I don't know whether or not Udoka's going to be ready.

Just amazing. Just admit that you wished that we had taken a wing. No need to invent reasons to not like Udoka.
 

seattlejazzfan

Well-Known Member
You realize the center position traditionally takes longer to develop than any other position, you know this, right? Also, the jazz will most likely sign a vet 5 because even they know he may not be ready, even if he is the jazz wasted cap money. Waste of a pick
Thriller said it but nobody is asking him to play 30 minutes a game. He's going to come in, set picks, roll to the basket and dunk. that is on one end of the floor. on the other end of the floor he needs to stand there and when a little guy comes driving in, he needs to get in the way and try to make it hard for that guy to finish. He's a four player. he can do that. if the i agree that they wasted a pick. but again, he can, so it's not something we need to worry about.
You’re an idiot. You have no clue if he is or will be ready to go. It ****ing took TB three ****ing years just to get somewhat into the rotation. Three years to be a bad backup center.

look, I like udoka a lot more than TB, he’s more athletic longer, stronger, probably better in every way except shooting and ft’s, but you can’t just brazenly say you know for sure he’s ready to contribute right away, also since he’s going to be Rudy’s backup, if he does becom a quality player he will leave as soon as he can so he can play more min and make more money. Essentially we drafted and developed him for another team. There’s a reason teams with star centers don’t draft centers in the first round let alone reach for a second round center in the first. It’s a waste of money and team building.
lol. don't be a dumbass. TB wasn't even starting on his college team. UA was Big12 POY. They should never be mentioned in the same sentence.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
Thriller said it but nobody is asking him to play 30 minutes a game. He's going to come in, set picks, roll to the basket and dunk. that is on one end of the floor. on the other end of the floor he needs to stand there and when a little guy comes driving in, he needs to get in the way and try to make it hard for that guy to finish. He's a four player. he can do that. if the i agree that they wasted a pick. but again, he can, so it's not something we need to worry about.

lol. don't be a dumbass. TB wasn't even starting on his college team. UA was Big12 POY. They should never be mentioned in the same sentence.
Right? People calling him TB is just so lazy and disrespectful.

Udoka is Tony Bradley just like Kosta Boom Bitches is just like Rudy Gobert. I mean, sure they have different sizes, athleticism, and roles. But you know, they're the same.

One of the main reasons why I like Udoka is that he should be able to come in and give us quality Gobert like mins. Never in a game will the lane be open and always will our center be a lob threat. I think that's a real advantage, not disadvantage. Everyone is trying to emulate the Warriors and Rockets. I don't think that's a wise strategy for the Jazz. Their size is an advantage not disadvantage. As stated before, he's not going to be asked to do anything that he wasn't already doing at an elite level for 4 years in Kansas. It just seems like people are inventing new ways to dislike the pick.

Wish we had taken a swing at one of those millions of wings that were available in the late first round? Okay, I can see an argument to be made there. But all these comparisons to Bradley or claiming "he's not ready" are just lazy excuses to not like the pick. They're certainly not based on reality or reason. Just bitterness and the inability to actually articulate which wing would've been a better fit. My thinking is that most fans don't even know which wing would've been a better fit. They just don't like we took a center in the first round.
 

infection

Well-Known Member
Staff member
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
Okay... here's my tl;dr...

I don't watch college basketball. I have not paid attention to the draft this year at all. Literally 0. There have been a couple years that I haven't paid much attention, but this is the first year where I really haven't paid attention -- at all. The last time this was goes back to probably the year DeShawn Stevenson was drafted. The draft is stupid. I hyperbolize a bit, but seriously. Anyone who knows me knows how much I've railed on the fact of how overrated first round picks have become. I don't mean that they don't have value, and that you can't really hit on them (we did on Rudy and Donovan), but I think precisely because we hit on those, we (and a lot of people around the league) have become intoxicated on the potential of draft pieces, especially as the culture has changed around playing young guys and having them be contributors. But the reality is that a draft pick's theoretical value is much higher than its actual value. It's theoretical value has high ceiling. I believe it's more wise to cash in on that theoretical value to bring back returns of actual or known value. The most frustrating time was passing on Niko for what ended up being Grayson Allen. That's just an example. We get excited about possibilities, but the reality that you'll draft a Grayson Allen is actually pretty high. Yes, yes DL's "bites at the apple," and all. I get it. I'm not suggesting we should have traded the pick, or that there is anything on board for this right now, but just that the general trend is that we over-focus on these draft picks because we like the idea of a higher ceiling of possibility that comes along with an unknown. Another thing I hate is that often people talk about a draft being a success if you can find a guy who ends up having a career and is a rotational player. To me, this is like growing potatoes. We have a big garden in our backyard. We grow things for fun and for taste. The tomatoes, parsley, basil, etc., all tastes better than what you can buy at the store. We've tried to do potatoes in the past. But it's pointless. Why? Because they take up space and they're not any better than the cheap potatoes you buy at the store. Who cares if you can grow potatoes? Just buy them from the store and use that space to grow more tomatoes or something else.

Most of you know how I feel about the backup C spot. Last year we saw that we could have pulled James Donaldson out of retirement and he could have been an upgrade for our backup 5. We've talked a lot about Favors, which I'm fine with, but honestly I would have been very content signing Udoh because I think with having more bench scoring pieces, his offense isn't that big of an issue and he plays pretty elite defense. There are a lot of very cheap options out there that we can grab. That said, I really don't mind the pick. All the things that he's expected to do and that he's good at, he can immediately come in and do. He actually may check a lot more boxes than a number of other options. We signed Davis thinking he'd be a cheap replacement of Favors. No offense, and no rim protection really, but a guy who can come in and grab a lot of rebounds. But he wasn't good at that at all. TB could grab rebounds, but they were often his own misses. He didn't really do anything else. He was obvious more of a positive on the offensive end, but all things considered it was bad. We need a guy who can play defense and protect the rim, and I'd feel comfortable in saying that despite being a rookie, this guy can do that better than most of the people we'd be thinking about. We also need a guy who can get rebounds, and again I think he could do this probably better than most the guys we'd be looking at. What he can't do is spread the floor. But he's not offensively inept like Udoh is. He can be a lob threat. He's not going to be any kind of offensive juggernaut, but I think he'd have a lot more ability to punish small ball than many guys. For whatever reason we haven't figured out how to make Gobert punish small ball on offense, but I think this could be a nice small perk on occasion. He's a gigantic upgrade from Udoh in terms of rebounding (Udoh sucks at rebounding) and he's a big upgrade offensively from Udoh. I think he will play. But I agree with seattle... if he doesn't play, this was stupid. He could certainly be decent, but it's honestly guessswork at this point. I don't know that anyone could say for certain that he could be penciled in as the backup, but again with comparison of last year, that doesn't really matter. I mean, we were pining for a 6'8" guy to play backup center who was a rookie. I think a guy who's a 4 year player in a good conference should be a reasonable option. If we sign Favors on top of this, then it's stupid.

But enough about talking about the draft. The draft is stupid. It's a huge red herring for what the actual issue is. The real issue is what we'll do regarding perimeter defense and, unfortunately, that's not changing because we're not going to move Conley. We could add Shaq but ultimately I don't think it will matter much because we're not changing the closing lineup at all. The only way for us to make any meaningful improvement is to find a way to improve the defense of the main and closing lineups. The most efficient way to do that is to move on from Conley, which ain't happening. So sorry. We're SOL. We have Conley, Bojan, Donovan, and JC. They're all similar in that they're all good offensive players (certainly arguable about Conley with how he played last season) who aren't going to give us much on the defensive end. Subbing one of those off the floor, who gives you the highest relative defensive improvement? Well, that's easy. Having a big wing on the floor instead of Conley is a huge advantage because it allows everyone to move down a spot. I think it really comes down to JC vs. Conley. JC comes off the bench already and doesn't close games. Conley, as we've learned, can't come off the bench, at least with how our franchise dynamics are currently constituted. The move that needs to be made here is Conley for OPJ. But we won't do that. So this is what things look like. But making that move would be key. If we keep all of JC, DM, MC, and BB, we're surrendering perimeter defense. It doesn't matter who we add because they won't play significant enough minutes and they won't be on the floor during crucial parts of the game. That's just the reality. We will put Royce in, who leaves a lot to be desired on offense, just because he's 'our guy,' so don't be looking at much defensive improvement if we're not moving MC. Even if we move JC instead, we still have the problems because of when MC is slated to be on the floor.

tl;dr this offseason can be a success and the draft is a red herring and overrated. But the reality is that we are not going to do the things that would make this offseason a success, but I guess we'll wait and see how that unfolds.

But successful offseason is trade Conley for OPJ, then go sign Shaq. Cheap pieces around the edges may be a Markieff Morris (wouldn't ever happen), GRIII, and then as a diversity piece at the 5 spot get Meyers Leonard. If we were ballsy enough to resign JC and use most of MLE, get JaMychal Green

Mitchell / Shaq / Neto
Ingles / JC
Bojan / Royce
OPJ / Green
Gobert / Udoka / Leonard
 

infection

Well-Known Member
Staff member
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner

He'll be fine. This is a distraction. The failure of this offseason won't have anything to do with this -- it will have to do with us not moving the right players to make us actually successful. Even if we drafted a wing, Conley's space-occupying floor position inhibits us from being able to run perimeter defense the way we need to truly compete.
 

LoPo

Well-Known Member
Okay... here's my tl;dr...

I don't watch college basketball. I have not paid attention to the draft this year at all. Literally 0. There have been a couple years that I haven't paid much attention, but this is the first year where I really haven't paid attention -- at all. The last time this was goes back to probably the year DeShawn Stevenson was drafted. The draft is stupid. I hyperbolize a bit, but seriously. Anyone who knows me knows how much I've railed on the fact of how overrated first round picks have become. I don't mean that they don't have value, and that you can't really hit on them (we did on Rudy and Donovan), but I think precisely because we hit on those, we (and a lot of people around the league) have become intoxicated on the potential of draft pieces, especially as the culture has changed around playing young guys and having them be contributors. But the reality is that a draft pick's theoretical value is much higher than its actual value. It's theoretical value has high ceiling. I believe it's more wise to cash in on that theoretical value to bring back returns of actual or known value. The most frustrating time was passing on Niko for what ended up being Grayson Allen. That's just an example. We get excited about possibilities, but the reality that you'll draft a Grayson Allen is actually pretty high. Yes, yes DL's "bites at the apple," and all. I get it. I'm not suggesting we should have traded the pick, or that there is anything on board for this right now, but just that the general trend is that we over-focus on these draft picks because we like the idea of a higher ceiling of possibility that comes along with an unknown. Another thing I hate is that often people talk about a draft being a success if you can find a guy who ends up having a career and is a rotational player. To me, this is like growing potatoes. We have a big garden in our backyard. We grow things for fun and for taste. The tomatoes, parsley, basil, etc., all tastes better than what you can buy at the store. We've tried to do potatoes in the past. But it's pointless. Why? Because they take up space and they're not any better than the cheap potatoes you buy at the store. Who cares if you can grow potatoes? Just buy them from the store and use that space to grow more tomatoes or something else.

Most of you know how I feel about the backup C spot. Last year we saw that we could have pulled James Donaldson out of retirement and he could have been an upgrade for our backup 5. We've talked a lot about Favors, which I'm fine with, but honestly I would have been very content signing Udoh because I think with having more bench scoring pieces, his offense isn't that big of an issue and he plays pretty elite defense. There are a lot of very cheap options out there that we can grab. That said, I really don't mind the pick. All the things that he's expected to do and that he's good at, he can immediately come in and do. He actually may check a lot more boxes than a number of other options. We signed Davis thinking he'd be a cheap replacement of Favors. No offense, and no rim protection really, but a guy who can come in and grab a lot of rebounds. But he wasn't good at that at all. TB could grab rebounds, but they were often his own misses. He didn't really do anything else. He was obvious more of a positive on the offensive end, but all things considered it was bad. We need a guy who can play defense and protect the rim, and I'd feel comfortable in saying that despite being a rookie, this guy can do that better than most of the people we'd be thinking about. We also need a guy who can get rebounds, and again I think he could do this probably better than most the guys we'd be looking at. What he can't do is spread the floor. But he's not offensively inept like Udoh is. He can be a lob threat. He's not going to be any kind of offensive juggernaut, but I think he'd have a lot more ability to punish small ball than many guys. For whatever reason we haven't figured out how to make Gobert punish small ball on offense, but I think this could be a nice small perk on occasion. He's a gigantic upgrade from Udoh in terms of rebounding (Udoh sucks at rebounding) and he's a big upgrade offensively from Udoh. I think he will play. But I agree with seattle... if he doesn't play, this was stupid. He could certainly be decent, but it's honestly guessswork at this point. I don't know that anyone could say for certain that he could be penciled in as the backup, but again with comparison of last year, that doesn't really matter. I mean, we were pining for a 6'8" guy to play backup center who was a rookie. I think a guy who's a 4 year player in a good conference should be a reasonable option. If we sign Favors on top of this, then it's stupid.

But enough about talking about the draft. The draft is stupid. It's a huge red herring for what the actual issue is. The real issue is what we'll do regarding perimeter defense and, unfortunately, that's not changing because we're not going to move Conley. We could add Shaq but ultimately I don't think it will matter much because we're not changing the closing lineup at all. The only way for us to make any meaningful improvement is to find a way to improve the defense of the main and closing lineups. The most efficient way to do that is to move on from Conley, which ain't happening. So sorry. We're SOL. We have Conley, Bojan, Donovan, and JC. They're all similar in that they're all good offensive players (certainly arguable about Conley with how he played last season) who aren't going to give us much on the defensive end. Subbing one of those off the floor, who gives you the highest relative defensive improvement? Well, that's easy. Having a big wing on the floor instead of Conley is a huge advantage because it allows everyone to move down a spot. I think it really comes down to JC vs. Conley. JC comes off the bench already and doesn't close games. Conley, as we've learned, can't come off the bench, at least with how our franchise dynamics are currently constituted. The move that needs to be made here is Conley for OPJ. But we won't do that. So this is what things look like. But making that move would be key. If we keep all of JC, DM, MC, and BB, we're surrendering perimeter defense. It doesn't matter who we add because they won't play significant enough minutes and they won't be on the floor during crucial parts of the game. That's just the reality. We will put Royce in, who leaves a lot to be desired on offense, just because he's 'our guy,' so don't be looking at much defensive improvement if we're not moving MC. Even if we move JC instead, we still have the problems because of when MC is slated to be on the floor.

tl;dr this offseason can be a success and the draft is a red herring and overrated. But the reality is that we are not going to do the things that would make this offseason a success, but I guess we'll wait and see how that unfolds.

But successful offseason is trade Conley for OPJ, then go sign Shaq. Cheap pieces around the edges may be a Markieff Morris (wouldn't ever happen), GRIII, and then as a diversity piece at the 5 spot get Meyers Leonard. If we were ballsy enough to resign JC and use most of MLE, get JaMychal Green

Mitchell / Shaq / Neto
Ingles / JC
Bojan / Royce
OPJ / Green
Gobert / Udoka / Leonard
I agree. JC vs Conley

Sent from my SM-G970U using JazzFanz mobile app
 

infection

Well-Known Member
Staff member
2018 Award Winner
2019 Award Winner
Also, even though I'm not opposed to the pick.. for all the "trust the process / trust the FO genius" people (less of them here, more on Twitter and Jazz media guys), it's important to remember that the last "trust the process / trust the FO genius" project just got packaged with another asset in a total salary dump at the exact same time we're making these ironic arguments.
 

Thee Idiotic Minivan K

Well-Known Member
Right? People calling him TB is just so lazy and disrespectful.

Udoka is Tony Bradley just like Kosta Boom Bitches is just like Rudy Gobert. I mean, sure they have different sizes, athleticism, and roles. But you know, they're the same.

One of the main reasons why I like Udoka is that he should be able to come in and give us quality Gobert like mins. Never in a game will the lane be open and always will our center be a lob threat. I think that's a real advantage, not disadvantage. Everyone is trying to emulate the Warriors and Rockets. I don't think that's a wise strategy for the Jazz. Their size is an advantage not disadvantage. As stated before, he's not going to be asked to do anything that he wasn't already doing at an elite level for 4 years in Kansas. It just seems like people are inventing new ways to dislike the pick.

Wish we had taken a swing at one of those millions of wings that were available in the late first round? Okay, I can see an argument to be made there. But all these comparisons to Bradley or claiming "he's not ready" are just lazy excuses to not like the pick. They're certainly not based on reality or reason. Just bitterness and the inability to actually articulate which wing would've been a better fit. My thinking is that most fans don't even know which wing would've been a better fit. They just don't like we took a center in the first round.
My hell your an idiot. I never called him TB just illustrating why it was a waste of a pick. I even said that udoka was better in almost every way, did you skim over that part.
 

The Thriller

Well-Known Member
My hell your an idiot. I never called him TB just illustrating why it was a waste of a pick. I even said that udoka was better in almost every way, did you skim over that part.

LOL. You’re insulting my intelligence?

I honestly don’t even know why you brought up Tony Bradley. Whatever point you were trying to make was ruined by that comparison in your post.
 

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