Never Trump

[Jonah]

[MENTION=1522]red.[/MENTION] . . I think, if anything, I've underestimated the number of white supremacists Trump has inflamed with his rhetoric. I estimated tens of thousands, but it’s much more likely in the hundreds of thousands. There’s a website I came across yesterday called Stormfront. It has more than 300,000 members, the vast majority in the United States, and is even more radical than any of the alt-right, white nationalist websites I've been reading about recently. Their brand of blatant neo-Nazi, supremacist fury is eye-opening.

A few weeks ago, I thought chances are Trump will lose in a landslide and the magnitude of the loss will tamp down any stolen election claims. Now, I’m not so sure. The polls are tightening and I think the odds are tilting in favor of a close result.

I’ve never seen emotions running so high over an election. Many supporters of whomever loses will be extremely bitter and frustrated. Extreme frustration needs a release value, not further stoking of the fire. To help me remember, I googled Gore’s concession speech in 2000 after losing the Supreme Court decision on the contested election to Bush. That night Gore spoke to millions of bitter supporters convinced the election was stolen from them. He gave probably the best speech of his career. A graceful call for national reconciliation and unity.

I’m not a Clinton supporter, but I do think she has it in her to lose with grace. Any normal politician that respects American history knows that no democracy can endure without the peaceful transfer of power. I’m not nearly as confident about Trump. He is not a normal politician and I’m not sure he’s temperamentally capable of grace. So, a long-winded way of saying I share your concern about what might happen on election night if Trump reverts to the petty, vindictive outbursts he has repeatedly shown himself capable of throughout this campaign.

 

[BYE]

I think, if anything, I've underestimated the number of white supremacists Trump has inflamed with his rhetoric. I estimated tens of thousands, but it’s much more likely in the hundreds of thousands. There’s a website I came across yesterday called Stormfront. It has more than 300,000 members, the vast majority in the United States, and is even more radical than any of the alt-right, white nationalist websites I've been reading about recently. Their brand of blatant neo-Nazi, supremacist fury is eye-opening.

I’ve never seen emotions running so high over an election. Many supporters of whomever loses will be extremely bitter and frustrated. Extreme frustration needs a release value, not further stoking of the fire. To help me remember, I googled Gore’s concession speech in 2000 after losing the Supreme Court decision on the contested election to Bush. That night Gore spoke to millions of bitter supporters convinced the election was stolen from them. He gave probably the best speech of his career. A graceful call for national reconciliation and unity.

I’m not a Clinton supporter, but I do think she has it in her to lose with grace. Any normal politician that respects American history knows that no democracy can endure without the peaceful transfer of power. I’m not nearly as confident about Trump. He is not a normal politician and I’m not sure he’s temperamentally capable of grace. So, a long-winded way of saying I share your concern about what might happen on election night if Trump reverts to the petty, vindictive outbursts he has repeatedly shown himself capable of throughout this campaign.

I'm a complete and utter independent, and I have no idea how anyone in their right mind can vote for Trump. I do know that it is primarily people who have had a lot of influence from the right side or who are bigots...female president anyone? The largest fallacy out there is that this is a normal election. No! The two candidates are not even close. Hillary Clinton is a normal candidate who has been absolutely destroyed over the last 25 years by the right and who happens to be a woman, and yes, her gender has been a huge deal. Just imagine what she has had to endure for every second of every day, working with those in the testosterone-filled senate and congress, plus everything it takes to even survive in politics. In the Right's eyes, she has done NOTHING even remotely competent or ethical in her entire life.

However, she has worked extremely hard in any office or undertaking in which she has served throughout her life. Just take a look at the 3,700 page document that tracked every single meeting she had as Secretary of State. Many Republicans praised Clinton before this election process really got underway, including Trump. At this point, the claims of anything even remotely illegal that have been attached to Clinton have NEVER been proven. She's lied, but so has every single politician in the history of the world. Through this campaign, she was regularly the most honest, along with Bernie Sanders, while Trump was so far behind everyone it wasn’t even funny, according to Politico's fact checking.

Now on the other side, you have someone who is literally the WORST presidential candidate of all time. There is virtually nothing you can say that is repulsive that he hasn't already done in his bid for president. We're talking outlandish and unbelievable things. He has single-handedly lowered our expectations of a presidential candidate that I fear it will be decades before any semblance of decency returns to this process. He literally has the temperament of a four-year old child. He has insulted in some way every single minority, including religious organizations, not to mention women, who actually represent the majority of the US. He has the mental capacity of that same four-year old child, and has no attention span whatsoever.

Again, just look at Clinton's daily schedule from when she was Secretary of State. The energy you have to put into office is unbelievable. The knowledge you have to have, and the diplomacy you have to master is beyond many people. You actually have to have qualifications that make you good at your job. Nothing that Trump has done has shown any scrap of presidential qualities, NOTHING. He's never inspired anyone in a noble cause. From a relatively objective position, I have been disturbed and shocked at how many people have simply abandoned their morals and embraced Trump. A nation with Trump at its head is a nation that has lost its way and should logically lead no one.

You are 100% right about Trump not leaving quietly, and this is why he is so much like Hitler and Mussolini and any other demagogue of history. Trump has already divided the country more than it has been in decades. His followers literally pledge themselves to him, not the country. Look at his rallies and the associated violence. Look at his statement about his shooting someone in the street and his followers not even caring. Look at his focus on himself as the only one who can solve their problem and fuel their hate. Look at the paranoia and hate he ignites in his followers' minds. In his mind, the system is “rigged against them and him.” If a system is rigged, then, you (read his followers) have to take extreme measures, and that is easy to do when nearly every single one of your opponents has been denigrated and blamed by Trump.

One thing that has remained true is that humans rarely see where they’re at from a historic perspective. Germans of the 20th century didn’t understand how severe their actions were. They couldn’t see this from afar. Very few people act from a historical perspective when it comes to radical changes in the world and a country. Political systems and countries can be destroyed very quickly when we look at history. This has been the schedule of arguably our most history-shaping wars. Revolutionary War: 1783, Civil War: 1865, World War 1: 1918, and World War 2: 1945. In our history, you can see how often we've had these huge events. Our next one could be a century away, but hindsight is everything. This is not a normal election.

 

[franklin]

=JJAS;1280289]I'm a complete and utter independent, and I have no idea how anyone in their right mind can vote for Trump.[/QUOTE]

Those I talk with chalk it up to two things: a) that nothing will change whether Trump or Hillary, except b) Supreme Court nominations.

I do know that it is primarily people who have had a lot of influence from the right side or who are bigots...female president anyone? The largest fallacy out there is that this is a normal election. No! The two candidates are not even close. Hillary Clinton is a normal candidate who has been absolutely destroyed over the last 25 years by the right and who happens to be a woman, and yes, her gender has been a huge deal. Just imagine what she has had to endure for every second of every day, working with those in the testosterone-filled senate and congress, plus everything it takes to even survive in politics. In the Right's eyes, she has done NOTHING even remotely competent or ethical in her entire life.

However, she has worked extremely hard in any office or undertaking in which she has served throughout her life. Just take a look at the 3,700 page document that tracked every single meeting she had as Secretary of State. Many Republicans praised Clinton before this election process really got underway, including Trump. At this point, the claims of anything even remotely illegal that have been attached to Clinton have NEVER been proven. She's lied, but so has every single politician in the history of the world. Through this campaign, she was regularly the most honest, along with Bernie Sanders, while Trump was so far behind everyone it wasn’t even funny, according to Politico's fact checking.

Well said. Glad to meet someone else who can respect what politicians go through without anger at them for enduring it.

This is why I support her reasons for lying. As a politician, when you have a massive political target on your back what are you supposed to do? Benghazi? Please.

Now on the other side, you have someone who is literally the WORST presidential candidate of all time. There is virtually nothing you can say that is repulsive that he hasn't already done in his bid for president. We're talking outlandish and unbelievable things. He has single-handedly lowered our expectations of a presidential candidate that I fear it will be decades before any semblance of decency returns to this process. He literally has the temperament of a four-year old child. He has insulted in some way every single minority, including religious organizations, not to mention women, who actually represent the majority of the US. He has the mental capacity of that same four-year old child, and has no attention span whatsoever.

Again, just look at Clinton's daily schedule from when she was Secretary of State. The energy you have to put into office is unbelievable. The knowledge you have to have, and the diplomacy you have to master is beyond many people. You actually have to have qualifications that make you good at your job. Nothing that Trump has done has shown any scrap of presidential qualities, NOTHING. He's never inspired anyone in a noble cause. From a relatively objective position, I have been disturbed and shocked at how many people have simply abandoned their morals and embraced Trump. A nation with Trump at its head is a nation that has lost its way and should logically lead no one.

You are 100% right about Trump not leaving quietly, and this is why he is so much like Hitler and Mussolini and any other demagogue of history. Trump has already divided the country more than it has been in decades. His followers literally pledge themselves to him, not the country. Look at his rallies and the associated violence. Look at his statement about his shooting someone in the street and his followers not even caring. Look at his focus on himself as the only one who can solve their problem and fuel their hate. Look at the paranoia and hate he ignites in his followers' minds. In his mind, the system is “rigged against them and him.” If a system is rigged, then, you (read his followers) have to take extreme measures, and that is easy to do when nearly every single one of your opponents has been denigrated and blamed by Trump.

One thing that has remained true is that humans rarely see where they’re at from a historic perspective. Germans of the 20th century didn’t understand how severe their actions were. They couldn’t see this from afar. Very few people act from a historical perspective when it comes to radical changes in the world and a country. Political systems and countries can be destroyed very quickly when we look at history. This has been the schedule of arguably our most history-shaping wars. Revolutionary War: 1783, Civil War: 1865, World War 1: 1918, and World War 2: 1945. In our history, you can see how often we've had these huge events. Our next one could be a century away, but hindsight is everything. This is not a normal election.

Again, another well put reason to support career politicians instead of hating on The Establishment. Most of them are good dudes if we allow them to be.

 

[BYE]

Those I talk with chalk it up to two things: a) that nothing will change whether Trump or Hillary, except b) Supreme Court nominations.

I understand this to a certain extent, but it baffles me that a president has become simply a metonym (best word I could think of) for Supreme Court judges. I also understand the apathy, in theory, but what has shocked me is that people are not doing everything in their power to prevent Donald Trump from becoming our country’s representative. Competency aside, so many people are willing to elect a president, whose ideas I thought were so contrary to the views of the vast majority of our country with respect to our progress as a people. If nothing else, it has shown me how gullible and/or apathetic a huge portion of our country is, and it is shocking to me that a presidential candidate like Trump does nothing but drive people into a deeper apathetic slumber. I assumed that 90% of our country would refuse to even stomach one, let alone, hundreds of his asinine comments and views. I was naive in this, I see.

 

[franklin]

I understand this to a certain extent, but it baffles me that a president has become simply a metonym (best word I could think of) for Supreme Court judges. I also understand the apathy, in theory, but what has shocked me is that people are not doing everything in their power to prevent Donald Trump from becoming our country’s representative. Competency aside, so many people are willing to elect a president, whose ideas I thought were so contrary to the views of the vast majority of our country with respect to our progress as a people. If nothing else, it has shown me how gullible and/or apathetic a huge portion of our country is, and it is shocking to me that a presidential candidate like Trump does nothing but drive people into a deeper apathetic slumber. I assumed that 90% of our country would refuse to even stomach one, let alone, hundreds of his asinine comments and views. I was naive in this, I see.

Why is it so baffling? I can kind of relate to the alt-right stigmatizing in that several different groups align for their specific reasons.

You have far right, western conservatives who are against anything democrat. They're tired of their way of life being challenged by people who don't live their lifestyle. They see the constant punching up from lesser countries as a threat and even more so from those within.

You have at least half the 70 million Catholic populace who are hard core against their church hospitals required to dole out birth control and perform abortions.

You have the stop taxing me to death crowd.

You have the pro-guns rights crowd.

On and on.


There are hard line issues that some refuse to cross. That's why we have a two party system that continues to be functional.

 

[BYE]

Why is it so baffling? I can kind of relate to the alt-right stigmatizing in that several different groups align for their specific reasons.

You have far right, western conservatives who are against anything democrat. They're tired of their way of life being challenged by people who don't live their lifestyle. They see the constant punching up from lesser countries as a threat and even more so from those within.

You have at least half the 70 million Catholic populace who are hard core against their church hospitals required to dole out birth control and perform abortions.

You have the stop taxing me to death crowd.

You have the pro-guns rights crowd.

On and on.


There are hard line issues that some refuse to cross. That's why we have a two party system that continues to be functional.

As an independent, I definitely have a handful of issues that I feel extremely strongly towards, abortion being one. However, there has never been one issue that would ever cause me to become a rubber stamp because a candidate has either an R or D by his/her name. Trump held more or less Democratic views for years, but now that he has an R in front of his name, he must be a fervent apologist of all of those Republican "hard line" issues you speak of. I understand the hard line argument you're talking about. I just don't understand the choice to become a slave to a letter of the alphabet because I've chosen to become a political zombie.

 

[Red]

I'm a complete and utter independent, and I have no idea how anyone in their right mind can vote for Trump. I do know that it is primarily people who have had a lot of influence from the right side or who are bigots...female president anyone? The largest fallacy out there is that this is a normal election. No! The two candidates are not even close. Hillary Clinton is a normal candidate who has been absolutely destroyed over the last 25 years by the right and who happens to be a woman, and yes, her gender has been a huge deal. Just imagine what she has had to endure for every second of every day, working with those in the testosterone-filled senate and congress, plus everything it takes to even survive in politics. In the Right's eyes, she has done NOTHING even remotely competent or ethical in her entire life.

However, she has worked extremely hard in any office or undertaking in which she has served throughout her life. Just take a look at the 3,700 page document that tracked every single meeting she had as Secretary of State. Many Republicans praised Clinton before this election process really got underway, including Trump. At this point, the claims of anything even remotely illegal that have been attached to Clinton have NEVER been proven. She's lied, but so has every single politician in the history of the world. Through this campaign, she was regularly the most honest, along with Bernie Sanders, while Trump was so far behind everyone it wasn’t even funny, according to Politico's fact checking.

Now on the other side, you have someone who is literally the WORST presidential candidate of all time. There is virtually nothing you can say that is repulsive that he hasn't already done in his bid for president. We're talking outlandish and unbelievable things. He has single-handedly lowered our expectations of a presidential candidate that I fear it will be decades before any semblance of decency returns to this process. He literally has the temperament of a four-year old child. He has insulted in some way every single minority, including religious organizations, not to mention women, who actually represent the majority of the US. He has the mental capacity of that same four-year old child, and has no attention span whatsoever.

Again, just look at Clinton's daily schedule from when she was Secretary of State. The energy you have to put into office is unbelievable. The knowledge you have to have, and the diplomacy you have to master is beyond many people. You actually have to have qualifications that make you good at your job. Nothing that Trump has done has shown any scrap of presidential qualities, NOTHING. He's never inspired anyone in a noble cause. From a relatively objective position, I have been disturbed and shocked at how many people have simply abandoned their morals and embraced Trump. A nation with Trump at its head is a nation that has lost its way and should logically lead no one.

You are 100% right about Trump not leaving quietly, and this is why he is so much like Hitler and Mussolini and any other demagogue of history. Trump has already divided the country more than it has been in decades. His followers literally pledge themselves to him, not the country. Look at his rallies and the associated violence. Look at his statement about his shooting someone in the street and his followers not even caring. Look at his focus on himself as the only one who can solve their problem and fuel their hate. Look at the paranoia and hate he ignites in his followers' minds. In his mind, the system is “rigged against them and him.” If a system is rigged, then, you (read his followers) have to take extreme measures, and that is easy to do when nearly every single one of your opponents has been denigrated and blamed by Trump.

One thing that has remained true is that humans rarely see where they’re at from a historic perspective. Germans of the 20th century didn’t understand how severe their actions were. They couldn’t see this from afar. Very few people act from a historical perspective when it comes to radical changes in the world and a country. Political systems and countries can be destroyed very quickly when we look at history. This has been the schedule of arguably our most history-shaping wars. Revolutionary War: 1783, Civil War: 1865, World War 1: 1918, and World War 2: 1945. In our history, you can see how often we've had these huge events. Our next one could be a century away, but hindsight is everything. This is not a normal election.

Great post. Yeah, I'm not sure he's even made it to 4 years old emotionally yet, lol.

The trip to Mexico and it's aftermath was interesting in that respect. At the joint press conference with the Mexican President, no bluster, and the claim that the two had not discussed who would pay for the wall. Yet, before his plane had even landed back in Az, Nietro was telling the media he had told Trump at the get go that Mexico would not be paying for any wall. And ex-President Fox had been saying the same thing all day, and pointing out Trump paid the visit just to make himself look like a leader.

The way I see Trump, being contradicted in public by Nietro, and being accused by some of growing soft, would have gone up his butt sideways. So what happens when he delivers his immigration speech that night in Phoenix? He all but shouts the entire speech, and makes it so clear how he really feels, that some of his few prominent Hispanic supporters walk away from him once and for all. His speech that night was that of a petulant child adopting the position "oh yeah? Think I'm soft, do you? Contradict me in public will ya?" Or, as he put it that night in Phoenix:

https://www.slate.com/articles/news...t_his_bluster_on_this_side_of_the_border.html

"“There will be no amnesty,” Trump said, shouting to a frenzied crowd of supporters. “Our message to the world will be this: You cannot obtain legal status or become a citizen of the United States by illegally entering our country.
“We will build a great wall along the border,” he continued. “And Mexico will pay for the wall.”

For the first time in the campaign, Trump was clear and forceful about his plans. “According to federal data, there are at least 2 million, 2 million, think of it, criminal aliens now inside of our country, 2 million people, criminal aliens. We will begin moving them out day one. As soon as I take office. Day one. In joint operation with local, state, and federal law enforcement.” He emphasized this point with an aside: “And you can call it deported if you want. The press doesn’t like that term. You can call it whatever the hell you want. They’re gone.”
------------------------
I'm not sure he would have been quite so rabid in his delivery that night had he not become angered by a less then ideal response to his trip and his talks with Nietro. And stewing over the criticisms in recent days that he was softening, something his handlers had suggested he be, to appeal beyond his base. Instead, he couldn't wait to get back on stage and show everyone the kick-*** leader his followers expect and want him to be. So much so, that he basically said "get lost" to any remaining Hispanic supporters in his fold and among the electorate.

Presidential candidate as spoiled brat. He's got that persona down pat.

I don't write the guy off at all. And I share Jonah's concerns for the post election climate in the United States. With Roger Ailes and Bannon in his fold, some have suggested a right wing media giant will emerge from this Presidential run, one that will serve as an echo chamber for those very far right elements that we least need to continue poisoning the body politic. At any rate, should Clinton win, I fear she will be paying a very heavy price. I think the nation will as well.

 

[Jonah]

[MENTION=592]Jonah[/MENTION].... that good post is just too big to quote ten times in here, lol

I think I have heard Bannon talking a few times, and several others on Breitbart a few times. When I'm traveling, my only radio access is XM, and sometimes I listen to the dems on another channel too.

What I've been thinking is that they have some good points about how a lot of Americans now feel that they are being forced into the back seat of the bus while they're the taxpayers, and the dems are importing a privileged class voter block to pad their power position, at the expense of the taxpayers. . .

I want to expand on this sometime soon because I agree it’s the motivation of the majority of Trump supporters and that it’s not necessarily racist, more a feeling of loss and disillusionment with the direction the county is heading. There’s a new book out, I just ordered it today from Amazon, called “Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right” by Arlie Hochschild, that I hope will help me to better understand this issue. Will report back once I get to reading.

. . .Now that you've laid out the agenda you believe Bannon is pushing, I will look for that in future listening.

Breitbart gets the headlines because of Bannon, but they are far from the worst, plus from now until the election I expect they will tone down the alt-right, supremacist rhetoric and focus more on cheerleading for Trump. If you want to get a real feel for the rabid, roiling hate that Trump has tapped into, check out Stormfront and American Renaissance, two popular hate sites that have hundreds of thousands of members and millions of readers.

 

[Red]

I want to expand on this sometime soon because I agree it’s the motivation of the majority of Trump supporters and that it’s not necessarily racist, more a feeling of loss and disillusionment with the direction the county is heading. There’s a new book out, I just ordered it today from Amazon, called “Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right” by Arlie Hochschild, that I hope will help me to better understand this issue. Will report back once I get to reading.


Breitbart gets the headlines because of Bannon, but they are far from the worst, plus from now until the election I expect they will tone down the alt-right, supremacist rhetoric and focus more on cheerleading for Trump. If you want to get a real feel for the rabid, roiling hate that Trump has tapped into, check out Stormfront and American Renaissance, two popular hate sites that have hundreds of thousands of members and millions of readers.

By coincidence, and also because I depend on TomDispatch to inform my own perspective, I read just last night this essay by the author of Strangers in their own Land:

https://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176181/tomgram:_arlie_hochschild,_trumping_environmentalism/

 

[Jonah]

By coincidence, and also because I depend on TomDispatch to inform my own perspective, I read just last night this essay by the author of Strangers in their own Land:

https://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176181/tomgram:_arlie_hochschild,_trumping_environmentalism/

It would be awesome if you, babe, myself, and anyone else interested in this issue, could read the book and share our thoughts here. I should get my copy Monday. I wanted a hard copy but it’s also available as an ebook at a nominal discount.

 

[Boris]

Great post. Yeah, I'm not sure he's even made it to 4 years old emotionally yet, lol.

The trip to Mexico and it's aftermath was interesting in that respect. At the joint press conference with the Mexican President, no bluster, and the claim that the two had not discussed who would pay for the wall. Yet, before his plane had even landed back in Az, Nietro was telling the media he had told Trump at the get go that Mexico would not be paying for any wall. And ex-President Fox had been saying the same thing all day, and pointing out Trump paid the visit just to make himself look like a leader.

The way I see Trump, being contradicted in public by Nietro, and being accused by some of growing soft, would have gone up his butt sideways. So what happens when he delivers his immigration speech that night in Phoenix? He all but shouts the entire speech, and makes it so clear how he really feels, that some of his few prominent Hispanic supporters walk away from him once and for all. His speech that night was that of a petulant child adopting the position "oh yeah? Think I'm soft, do you? Contradict me in public will ya?" Or, as he put it that night in Phoenix:

https://www.slate.com/articles/news...t_his_bluster_on_this_side_of_the_border.html

"“There will be no amnesty,” Trump said, shouting to a frenzied crowd of supporters. “Our message to the world will be this: You cannot obtain legal status or become a citizen of the United States by illegally entering our country.
“We will build a great wall along the border,” he continued. “And Mexico will pay for the wall.”

For the first time in the campaign, Trump was clear and forceful about his plans. “According to federal data, there are at least 2 million, 2 million, think of it, criminal aliens now inside of our country, 2 million people, criminal aliens. We will begin moving them out day one. As soon as I take office. Day one. In joint operation with local, state, and federal law enforcement.” He emphasized this point with an aside: “And you can call it deported if you want. The press doesn’t like that term. You can call it whatever the hell you want. They’re gone.”
------------------------
I'm not sure he would have been quite so rabid in his delivery that night had he not become angered by a less then ideal response to his trip and his talks with Nietro. And stewing over the criticisms in recent days that he was softening, something his handlers had suggested he be, to appeal beyond his base. Instead, he couldn't wait to get back on stage and show everyone the kick-*** leader his followers expect and want him to be. So much so, that he basically said "get lost" to any remaining Hispanic supporters in his fold and among the electorate.

Presidential candidate as spoiled brat. He's got that persona down pat.

I don't write the guy off at all. And I share Jonah's concerns for the post election climate in the United States. With Roger Ailes and Bannon in his fold, some have suggested a right wing media giant will emerge from this Presidential run, one that will serve as an echo chamber for those very far right elements that we least need to continue poisoning the body politic. At any rate, should Clinton win, I fear she will be paying a very heavy price. I think the nation will as well.

So basically you think all political posturing should be aimed toward sliding standards. We should have no values or stand on are principals. Go with what is popular an if you do not you are a Trump.

 

[♪alt13]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUXJtZex9PI