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Rational CoViD-19 Discussion Thread: Science vs. Politics

I'm positive there's no scientific reason to suppose a benefit from chloroquine on COVID19, just as I'm positive there's a scientific reason to suppose a benefit of parachutes.

One Brow, you almost always make such categorical statements about things you don't have the evidence to support. You're positive? Have there been studies showing that? As Infection said, there is anecdotal evidence, and he even gave some anecdotal evidence that countries with high rates of malaria are not have the problems as other places.

Furthermore, you make a dumb statement about coffee enemas to cure cancer. Well, coffee enemas are only one small part of the Gerson Cancer Protocol, which is based largely on detoxification to stimulate the immune system. They make no claim that coffee enemas can cure cancer.

Be more humble. We don't really know enough about the use of chloroquine and it is being used in conjunction with something else, I forget what now, to know categorically that it doesn't work. Maybe it doesn't but we can't "positive" yet.
 
There is no reliable evidence chloroquine works, and the hospitals that are using don't see an effect. There is no reason it should work.

Meanwhile, prescribe something that doesn't work for COVID19 makes harder to get for the patients who have a genuine for chloroquine (malaria and lupus sufferers).

I will start a thread, when I can, explicitly discussing the known, peer-reviewed research results related to hydroxychloroquine.

Until then, just realize your sources of information are politically tainted and worthless.

The deep-state operatives, regardless of their scientific qualifications, are lying to you. Cuomo, with his deadly clinging to his authoritarianism, his wet dream about becoming the NYC media-endorsed replacement for the Dem nomination once the demented, fading alzheimers and thoroughly disgraced corruption opportunistic government payola enforcer Joe Biden's wife persuades the elites that Joe can't function well enough to tie his own shoes. Cuomo's order requiring people to go to the hospital to get served a dose of hydroxyquine is tantamount to irresponsible governance with absolutely no justification whatsoever.

Cuomo has not done the most basic thing.....stopping the subway where New Yourkers cannot possibly maintain social distance.... His policies are so deadly, it is costing thousands of lives already.

Hydroxychloroquine does work. The Chinese tried to tell us this in February. A lot of public-spirited honest health care professionals in China were trying to spread this vital information even before that. Some of them were literally arrested and put in re-education camps before Chinese elites took the step to officially acknowledge this truth. Our demented elites just don't want to listen. They waste time and cost thousands of lies pushing the ideas you assert here.

But I expect within a week our own elites will acknowledge the truth I speak today, which I got from China a month ago.
 
Evidence meaning they haven't been able to actually test it in large scales of human populations because getting it out on the market to address an ongoing issue where time is of the essence is imperative. So they don't wait around to assess its true numbers for reduced morbidity and mortality because, if they did, by the time they had that data it would be completely worthless. We're in that kind of a situation right now.

Controlled double-blind experimental protocols are one type of evidence. However, they also don't just chuck a bunch of random random stuff into the flu vaccine, either. It works (when the correct viruses are used) because we understand how immunity works and how to activate immune systems. It's based on science, not anecdote nor random observations.

See above. Perhaps we could carry out a year or two of trials on each flu vaccine and get clear data before putting it out to market.

Why would we need to? We now how the vaccine works and why.

You may be misreading me because I don't have any opinion on hydroxychloroquine. I'm just stating that of the available reasons of suspicion for it having benefit, the data is not at all conclusive demonstrating that it is not beneficial.

I believe I understood that.

Now let's say research later verifies what many inpatient physicians are reporting.

The ones who say it does something or the ones who say it does nothing?
 
There's anecdotal evidence (from physicians) regarding its use. Then there's one French study that's controversial. But the "reliable evidence" regarding it wouldn't, and couldn't, exist currently. At least the way we speak when we say that. It's impossible for that evidence to exist at this moment. You have to interpret availability of evidence, or lack thereof, within an appropriate context. Also an appeal to biological mechanism is often misleading, because the mechanisms by which many medications work isn't how a lot of medications actually work, but since we're human we like explanations and we choose the best available to ease our anxieties about the unknown. For instance, there's really no reason why hydrochlorothiazide (a diuretic) should work for diabetes insipidus (a condition characterized by frequent urination), but it does.

Anyhow, there's a huge conflation between the idea of "no evidence" and "negative evidence" and it misleads not just the general public, but a lot of otherwise intelligent people in healthcare and science related fields.

To suggest that there isn't evidence that it works would be true (but is not the same as negative evidence). But to suggest that because there isn't evidence that it works means it shouldn't be utilized is just as silly as saying it works and that everyone should take it. These decisions are best left to physicians with the relevant training who are managing sick patients, and not to bureaucrats.

I recognize your professional bearings on this topic, and your measured, educated reasoning. I might not subscribe to some of the intitial axioms of your viewpoint just exactly as you do, but I am very glad to have your inpot in this discussion.

I studied specifically some of the antiparasitic and antimalarial medicine from a mainly medicinal chemistry point of view many years ago, when I was involved with a group trying to develop new medicines for a few years. I fully realize the value of current information and professional standards. And I'm an old fogey just trying to catch up with the science here, really.

I have been, however, a morbidly politicized objector to the ban on DDT, calling it the equivalent of genocide directed at tropical populations, mainly non-white. I could hardly overstate my appreciation for effective antimalarial treatments. I don't have the figures, but I sorta presume hydroxychloroquine has been massively used for decades.

It has a specific effect in blocking replication in RNA particularly in viral forms. It's known effects require some restraint on dosages and the interest and observation of a doctor, but even if I might alarm you for advocating that a ten-day package should be passed out to every person who tests positive for CoViD-19, or even that we should send police door to door in areas where the virus has been demonstrated, passing out the ten-day treatment to every human who can be found, we would be able to shut down this pandemic pretty quick. Two weeks, done and over.

I was going to make a fine point about who should get the dose under conditions of inadequate supplies, that ARDS patients are unlikely to be saved, while less severely affected persons can more likely be saved.

On the news today, we have some pharmaceutical companies ramping up to produce hundreds of millions of these pills. It is going to come on soon enough to help us close this down quickly.

Meanwhile, the social distancing and stay at home program is already showing effects, with the notable exception of New York, where Cuomo first understated the need, and the danger, and failed to put the program into effect. From what I hear, the subs are still packing passengers like sardines.
 
This is just to isolate OB's comment above "Why would we need to?". Yes we know generally how our immune system works, and a little about the dangers of various vaccines. But we also know how antiviral agents work, and maybe we know a lot more about a specific compound that has been used already in hundreds of millions of humans.

I think Infection's point you were deflecting is a very important aspect of this decision tree problem, and the facts we have pretty overwhelmingly dismiss the reasons for waiting for further studies.
 
One Brow, you almost always make such categorical statements about things you don't have the evidence to support. You're positive? Have there been studies showing that? As Infection said, there is anecdotal evidence, and he even gave some anecdotal evidence that countries with high rates of malaria are not have the problems as other places.

I'm positive there is no scientific basis from the complete lack of anyone bringing a scientific bases into the discussion. Naturally, you continued that trend.

Furthermore, you make a dumb statement about coffee enemas to cure cancer. Well, coffee enemas are only one small part of the Gerson Cancer Protocol, which is based largely on detoxification to stimulate the immune system. They make no claim that coffee enemas can cure cancer.

It also happens that "detoxification to stimulate the immune system" does not cure cancer, which is why so many patients that choose the Gerson Protocal die, when they had a better prognosis on conventional medication.

Be more humble. We don't really know enough about the use of chloroquine and it is being used in conjunction with something else, I forget what now, to know categorically that it doesn't work. Maybe it doesn't but we can't "positive" yet.

I'm not positive, I'm saying there's no good reason to believe there is a benefit. For all I know, Vitamin C cures COVID19. Maybe we just need a few dozen physicians to say it we can inject millions of patients with Vitamin C to find out.
 
I will start a thread, when I can, explicitly discussing the known, peer-reviewed research results related to hydroxychloroquine.

That isn't part of what this thread is for?

Until then, just realize your sources of information are politically tainted and worthless.

What are the politics of my sources here? For that matter, what are my sources?

Cuomo has not done the most basic thing.....stopping the subway where New Yourkers cannot possibly maintain social distance.... His policies are so deadly, it is costing thousands of lives already.

I don't know what effect stopping the subways would have on New York. Do you? How many police officers and fire fighters don't even own a car? Grocery clerks?

Hydroxychloroquine does work. The Chinese tried to tell us this in February.

Their latest study says otherwise.

But I expect within a week our own elites will acknowledge the truth I speak today, which I got from China a month ago.

The FDA already approved chloroquine for treatment of COVID19, despite no evidence it works.
 
This is just to isolate OB's comment above "Why would we need to?". Yes we know generally how our immune system works, and a little about the dangers of various vaccines. But we also know how antiviral agents work, and maybe we know a lot more about a specific compound that has been used already in hundreds of millions of humans.

I think Infection's point you were deflecting is a very important aspect of this decision tree problem, and the facts we have pretty overwhelmingly dismiss the reasons for waiting for further studies.

I agree that antivirals seem like an excellent candidate for treating COVID19, but infection would know better than I if that is true. Chloroquine is not an antiviral medication.
 
I will start a thread, when I can, explicitly discussing the known, peer-reviewed research results related to hydroxychloroquine.

Until then, just realize your sources of information are politically tainted and worthless.

The deep-state operatives, regardless of their scientific qualifications, are lying to you. Cuomo, with his deadly clinging to his authoritarianism, his wet dream about becoming the NYC media-endorsed replacement for the Dem nomination once the demented, fading alzheimers and thoroughly disgraced corruption opportunistic government payola enforcer Joe Biden's wife persuades the elites that Joe can't function well enough to tie his own shoes. Cuomo's order requiring people to go to the hospital to get served a dose of hydroxyquine is tantamount to irresponsible governance with absolutely no justification whatsoever.

Cuomo has not done the most basic thing.....stopping the subway where New Yourkers cannot possibly maintain social distance.... His policies are so deadly, it is costing thousands of lives already.

Hydroxychloroquine does work. The Chinese tried to tell us this in February. A lot of public-spirited honest health care professionals in China were trying to spread this vital information even before that. Some of them were literally arrested and put in re-education camps before Chinese elites took the step to officially acknowledge this truth. Our demented elites just don't want to listen. They waste time and cost thousands of lies pushing the ideas you assert here.

But I expect within a week our own elites will acknowledge the truth I speak today, which I got from China a month ago.
^^^ Exactly what I expect when I open a thread promising "rational discussion"
 
According to a Sermo study (I'll post it later) 75% of the doctors in Spain are treating with Hydroxychorloquine. By far the most in any country. And their morality rate is neck and neck with Italy for the worst in the world.
 
According to a Sermo study (I'll post it later) 75% of the doctors in Spain are treating with Hydroxychorloquine. By far the most in any country. And their morality rate is neck and neck with Italy for the worst in the world.
How long have they been using Hydroxychorloquine? Spain has started to flatten out regarding both infected and and deaths.
 
Controlled double-blind experimental protocols are one type of evidence. However, they also don't just chuck a bunch of random random stuff into the flu vaccine, either. It works (when the correct viruses are used) because we understand how immunity works and how to activate immune systems. It's based on science, not anecdote nor random observations.
Each flu vaccine is different. So while they're not "chuck[ing] a bunching of random stuff" into it [also hard to argue that one medication already on the market qualifies as "a bunch of random stuff"], the actual vaccine that gets approved hasn't been tested on any kind of population to determine its actual effectiveness against the flu. It's assumed by antibodies. But even that's not a perfect correlation. The point I'm making is that we don't have any outcome on the flu vaccine before it hits the market.[/quote]

The ones who say it does something or the ones who say it does nothing?
How many are you talking to?
 
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