What's new

Rational CoViD-19 Discussion Thread: Science vs. Politics

According to a Sermo study (I'll post it later) 75% of the doctors in Spain are treating with Hydroxychorloquine. By far the most in any country. And their morality rate is neck and neck with Italy for the worst in the world.

Now having taken some time to read this report, I thank you for giving us the link. There was no assessment of results of any treatment regime in this report, and it appears to be objectively done, and a factual survey of the opinions and methods within the treating professional set of respondents, biased only---- perhaps--- by the "selection" of respondents.... voluntary, within the contact base of Sermo.

I was glad to see how many were actually using HCQ, and to know something about prescription regimens. I had thought the "right" prescription was 400 mg initial dose and 200mg twice a day for ten days. The doctors are using 400 mg, sometimes once a day, sometimes twice daily generally. It looks like they do mostly 5 day prescriptions.

I had thought that six days was generally effective at the dosage I was looking at.

HCQ as a preventative or prophylactic is hard to evaluate without a matched control group. I have heard one doctor literally calling out for anyone who has been using HCQ while contracting Covid, apparently having not seen a single instance of that appearing in his practice.

I have my doubts about how many ARDS patients, already severely impacted, can be turned around by HCQ when they are literally on death's doorstep to start.

People who have a history of smoking...… where Spain is perhaps the top statistic on the planet....also have a worse prognosis generally. Maybe other impaired lung situations as well.
 
Today's stats.....

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

According to Mark Levin, and now admitted by our national expert, we are counting everyone who dies having Covid as any reference on their medical history as a Covid death. This is systematic overcounting. Many of the people who die with a positive Covid showed up at the doctor for other reasons in the first place. This is absolutely going to make damn sure we don't undercount the deaths because of any reason....

I mean, if you are shot in the head, and taken to the hospital, and the Covid test is positive, you are a Covid death, not a gunshot death.

So this dismisses the argument that we are somehow undercounting or lying to the public about the seriousness of Covid…… like we accuse China of doing so much......
 
I was glad to see how many were actually using HCQ, and to know something about prescription regimens.

I rarely feel glad about unnecessary blindness and heart complications being induced by a medicine that provides no benefits.
 
So we have now, in the USA, tested over 2M folks for Covid. In every test, we need some stats regarding accuracy and precision. Accuracy would involve the idea of getting a "right" answer, "precision" would involve the idea of not missing cases. Poor accuracy would involve, say, getting H1N1 or SARS or other Corona viruses giving a positive Covid test result where Covid is not actually the exact virus giving the positive result. Poor precision would involve on getting positive Covid results some fraction of the time where Covid is indeed present.

We know nothing about either of these parameters, and could only expect or presume some value or meaning in our testing. However, we have judgment, from experience generally, about all of our methods.

A diagnosis based on clinical observations..... acute pneumonia, fever, dry cough, little upper respiratory congestion..... might be 90% accurate/70% if not obviously explained by something else known to be a cause....

Any kind of "crude" positive antibody or antigen assay might be 95% accurate/90% precise.

A good test developed with positive and negative controls in the panel could do much better, but still miss a case or two in a thousand, and still pick up a positive from some other source in a hundred or so tests. There will be no such thing as an inerrant test.

That said, I note a propensity in human psychology for seeing what we are looking for at the moment, for erring on the side of amplification of our concerns. I have no means to quantify this phenomena, but to say, it's possible it's significant, maybe ten percent, maybe one percent, who knows.

But in 2M tests, we report 400k positives.

Considering the claim, with some supporting data, that as many as 80% of Covid cases are not serious enough to prompt a doctor visit..... and that tests are being done only on people who show up to ask for the test, sometimes for good reason..... And that we are reporting ALL the serious cases and deaths...… we can write an equation....

Tot#Covid = #Positive Test Results + Untested/Unknown Positives. The latter can be estimated from available data.

For reasons I discussed a few posts above, we are probably overstating #CovidDeaths, but this number does claim a positive Covid test result. Our stats on #Critical Covid Cases is likely understated, because some people just don't get that attention. And if our psycology is normal, and our tests are pretty good, we are likely overstating the #Positive Test Results by, perhaps.... in my judgment, aroung 2%. Not really a headliner there. But I will include it in the equation.

The next thing is to evaluate the probable extent of Covid cases out and about, walking around unknown and undetected. The best data for estimating this would be the percent of positives being found in persons who have no signs or symptoms of Covid who have been tested, or the rate of positives in the testing lines where, presumably, worried folks with some signs are hurrying to get tested. The first subset would be an underestimate, the second a fairly large overestimate....

Another useful test for evaluation of extent in the general public would be an antibody test rather than an antigen test like what we are now doing. The antibody result would tell us how many people have been exposed and lived to show it.
 
I rarely feel glad about unnecessary blindness and heart complications being induced by a medicine that provides no benefits.

Well, I hope you never do. But from what is known, based on millions of courses of HCQ used for malaria and some other less frequent human maladies like Lupus, if you believe this is a significant concern, you are believing lies, like I said before, whatever your claimed sources.

I was glad to see the extent of HCQ prescriptions for Covid diagnosed patients because it is saving millions of lives.
 
So, from today's stats per Worldometer…..

Today's new cases amount to only 5% of the total active cases. A few days ago we were seeing 9%, and just a few days before that, 16%. It is thought, on a little data, that walkabout carriers or active cases will infect on average 2.2 other persons during their 14 days or so of being spreaders, plus maybe 2% of infected persons becoming a sort of consistent permanent reservoir for infecting others.

These stats mean that our hiding in place, travel restrictions, and other mitigating efforts are presently working well enough that the new cases is only 1/5 of what would have been, doing nothing. And, a lot of these are cases discovered by increasing the testing rates.

That's the world look.
 
nationally, from the Worldometer page, the USA is doing about 1% new cases against active cases. Things to be inferred from that..... spreading is going on, at worst (if we know all the active cases) at a rate of 0.01 per carrier per day, or about 0.15 per carrier/14d, which is far less that the putative 2.2. If we have 80% mild cases overall, and some kind of large fraction of those just not knowing they have it, we could guess that there might be, say, 600k folks out there somewhere with the virus, spreaders doing their thing, which would mean maybe a rate of only 0.08/d per carrier.... that would make for a guess that mitigation is working at around 97 % of perfect.

Our deaths today were also around 1.1% of the previous total deaths, meaning the exponential rate per 3d is 1.05, much less than the 2.0 which would double every three days.

Spain is still doing the 3d doubling.... testing there is on par with ours. pop stats put Spain as very old and very heavy smokers, besides the whole social culture factors.....
 
Last edited:
I rarely feel glad about unnecessary blindness and heart complications being induced by a medicine that provides no benefits.
Retinopathy is a result of chronic use. Cardiac complications is a result of QT prolongation, which can predispose to certain arrhythmias, but can be monitored via telemetry in the hospital and, again, a decision that a practicing physician should make.
 
Retinopathy is a result of chronic use. Cardiac complications is a result of QT prolongation, which can predispose to certain arrhythmias, but can be monitored via telemetry in the hospital and, again, a decision that a practicing physician should make.

The retinopathy reflected older prescription formats no longer used, because dosages have been reduced significantly with the intent to avoid that result for decades now.....
 
@One Brow

Here's what I call a reasonable discussion, from someone who knows something......

https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/03/31/comparing-chloroquine-trials

I note, for your sake, that this is not the tone of NPR or other more politicized sources, and I consider this source "Establishment". And, really, detached from the reality most people live in. I mean, for Gawds sake, look at the scale of the "balanced" considerations........ where on one side there are thousands of people on death's door from whatever, and a therapeutic that has fairly remote negative consequences..... And here's an egghead who just can't say "Give it a go".

The fact is, he is aware of his professional political environment, and he is daring.... perhaps risking his career.... to give it "cautious" positive remarks.

What can drive such politics? You need to think about that.
 
@One Brow

Here are a few more links in response to your assertion that Hydroxychloroquine (HCQ) is not an antiviral. There are various kinds of antivirals, classifieable by their mode of action. I am most personally familiar with ribavirin. Ribavirin is a modified nucleic acid that blocks RNA replication by irreversible binding to an essential enzyme in replication. A lot of things have been tried in that line of action, a few have been effective, some others block DNA replication. My introduction to the field was working in a research group developing new postulates for that kind of antiviral action.

But for anyone to serious say HCQ is not antiviral...… I think that is profound ignorance and determined stupidity at best, a willful intent to deny the obvious. So I think, in all fairness, with regard for any journalist or reporter or news media player who will take such a stand, the proper diagnosis is they are determined, purposeful liars.

HCQ has been observed invitro, meaning in a petri dish, to be antiviral. Such action does not involve any immune system or transport phenomena, pretty much says HCQ prevents virus replication. But this is not thought to be the most significant antiviral property of HCQ.....

Here's a case of warts, caused by HPV (a virus):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3969705/

Here's a study on HIV (a virus) and inflammatory arthritis:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8546725

yesterday I posted here another link to a different viral disease, Dengue Virus, which indluced some discussion of its mode of action.

https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/jir.2014.0038
 
Last edited:
Back
Top