Retool around Donovan

[Hearsky]

Yeah you do.

If you want to re-tool you basically trade everyone over 30 on the team. Lose as many games as possible with Mitchell then use your cap space and future picks to get some players.

Maybe I misunderstood "retool." I assume it meant to rearrange the deck chairs to try and continue trying to be as competitive as possible and make the playoffs this year. If that is the plan, you are fine with 30+ year old guys. Bev makes your team better even when he is on the bench. You need dudes like that if you are trying to win.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

We could easily get another star with the package we got for Gobert if the team wanted draft picks instead of win-now players. We literally got one of the top-5 trade hauls in NBA history for Gobert.

Not sure about easy. If anything the cost of stars is higher now and much harder than it's ever been.

 

[Pinhead]

Retool around the guy that no one apparently wants to trade for?

 

[nateboz]

You don't build around Mitchell. You trade him to the Knicks for 6 first round picks.

Sent from my SM-N986U using Tapatalk

 

[Jingled]

Re-tooling around Donovan seems like something DL and Zanik would've tried, but I think Ainge is way too smart for that. The Jazz have no path to actually contending for a championship in the 3 years that Donovan has left on his contract, and then he'll bolt. Ainge knows trading Donovan is the best path forward, he's just being patient until the Knicks budge and give him a package he finds acceptable. I will be absolutely stunned if he actually gives up any of the assets acquired in the Gobert trade to put win now players around Donovan.

 

[homeytennis]

Re-tooling around Donovan seems like something DL and Zanik would've tried, but I think Ainge is way too smart for that. The Jazz have no path to actually contending for a championship in the 3 years that Donovan has left on his contract, and then he'll bolt. Ainge knows trading Donovan is the best path forward, he's just being patient until the Knicks budge and give him a package he finds acceptable. I will be absolutely stunned if he actually gives up any of the assets acquired in the Gobert trade to put win now players around Donovan.

He doesn't have to. He needs an adequate minimum wage center and he can roll with the current roster. Sure our own draft pick will be crappy but there are expiring contracts next summer and trader Dan can trade DM then for massive loot.

 

[Release the Kraken]

Retool around the guy that no one apparently wants to trade for?

That’s not exactly the case. We’re acting like he’s the Greek Freak and he just ain’t all that. And then there are other extenuating circumstances besides - such as the Knicks already signing their undersized point guard in Brunson and the Nets holding out for the ranch with Durant. We’d have a lot clearer path for Mitchell if Durant weren’t in play. Most teams would rather point their draft and personnel capital towards Durant.

And Danny may be our hero but he’s a total ball busting a$$ hole as far as most organizations are concerned. Somebody’s got their panties in a wad cause it’s just been crickets from the Knicks for two weeks.

Knicks, Jazz haven’t spoken in two weeks about Donovan Mitchell as trade talks stall

Trade talks between the Knicks and Jazz over Donovan Mitchell have apparently stalled.

nypost.com

 

[Release the Kraken]

Though I and most others don't believe it's a real possibility, I'm wondering what a serious re-tooling around Donovan could even look like.

If I'm reading between the lines correctly in Tony Jones's reporting about Jazz's choices, one of the options may be to use the three first-rounders the Jazz have in 2023, and perhaps additional assets, to find a serious second option to go along with Donovan. In my imagination I'm thinking of something like a Pascal Siakam-quality player. Problem is, I have a hard time thinking of someone who we'd really want being available for what we have to offer, at least in the near term.

Another option is to just seek competence and better team balance, let Donovan be the clear star and see where that takes you. In trying to think of trades that might be available I'm imagining something like:

• Dok + Conley (and probably modest draft capital -- let's says the worst of-Houston/Philly/Brooklyn 2023 FRP pick) for Poetl (Spurs have lots of cap space so a financially unbalanced trade works, and only one true PG on the roster; they should also not care if they win this year)
• Clarkson (and probably very modest draft capital -- let's say a 2025 31-40 protected second rounder) for Kuzma (Wiz have logjam at PF and may be worried about whether Johnny Davis can be a rotation player this year after his poor summer league); (or alternatively Beasley for Jonathan Isaac, as the Magic have a logjam at PF and lack of scoring pop at SG -- though I doubt the Magic are selling on Isaac now and I doubt the Jazz want to buy on him now either)
• NAW (and probably draft capital, since we're dealing with OKC, but hopefully modest -- let's say slightly worsening the protections for the 2024 draft pick we owe [if this is possible; I'm not sure it is]) for Kenrich Williams -- maybe this helps keep SGA happy by sending his cousin there?
• Beverley for Talent Horton-Tucker (maybe we could pry a 2025 second-rounder back?) -- I think THT still has upside if he can get out from needing to fit alongside LBJ/Russ

That would leave us with (sending out only modest draft capital overall):
PG: DM, Butler, (I'd try to re-sign) Forrest
SG: Beasley, THT, Bolmaro, (Juzang--TW)
SF: Bogey, Fontecchio, Kenrich Williams (Sneed--TW)
PF: Kuzma, Vanderbilt (though he'll probably play at least some center, too), Gay
C: Poetl, Kessler, TBD (probably easy to find a 3rd-string center as a minimum signing)

It wouldn't be great team (probably pretty poor shooting, especially in the depth pieces), but it would bring a bit more youth and length to the Jazz and at least have competence at most line-up spots. Maybe there's a way to coax defensive competence out of it? Could it win 45 games in the West?

Assuming the Jazz somehow really decided to re-tool around Donovan, what do you envision the result looking like?

Although “Retool Around Mitchell” is not the way I choose to see it - I don’t think he wants to be here and there’s still interest out there. I’m just starting to think we don’t get a deal done before the deadline at this point. And if that’s the case we have to showcase him whether we’re winning or losing. But as everybody probably knows by now I’m not a scorched earth tank advocate either - the odds of getting Wemby are so low and even then with the mechanics concerns, he’s one injury away from being the next Greg Oden or Anthony Bennett. So yeah let’s see what this band of misfits can do - we got three first coming regardless where we finish. And yeah, I’m not big on moves requiring any of the draft capital we’ve accrued.

The only move that I’d be interested in would be acquiring Duncan Robinson for Patrick Beverly and NAW. This guy is totally undervalued right now although he’s set numerous shooting records for Miami. Brooklyn has made it clear that they’re not interested in him in a Durant package and the Heat have expressed interest in Beverly. We throw NAW in to clear up some minutes for Bolmero and Butler. It’s a no-brainer IMO.

 

[SoberasHotRod]

OK, I'll play along. In this imaginary scenario I'll pretend Donovan is 100% staying for his entire contract, because there is no way I'm giving up even minor draft assets if he isn't staying.

First I'll try to get OG Anunoby for Bogey and two firsts.
Then I'll work on opening up a max salary spot for 2023. I think Conley can be delt at the deadline. I might have to give up a pick to get off Gay.
I think we likely still get a good draft pick in 2023, I'll just say we get Dariq Whitehead.

In 2023 Free Agency I try and get Kris Middleton + a center that can space the floor a little with the MLE. I'll pretend we can get Turner with the MLE since I also have no idea why Kris Middleton would want to come to the Jazz.

So then my starting lineup would be:
Mitchell, Middleton, OG, Vanderbilt, Turner.

We'd still have Clarkson, Whitehead, Fonteccino, Kessler, Balmaro off the bench.

That's about the best pretend scenario I can come up with.

 

[idiot]

OK, I'll play along. In this imaginary scenario I'll pretend Donovan is 100% staying for his entire contract, because there is no way I'm giving up even minor draft assets if he isn't staying.

First I'll try to get OG Anunoby for Bogey and two firsts.
Then I'll work on opening up a max salary spot for 2023. I think Conley can be delt at the deadline. I might have to give up a pick to get off Gay.
I think we likely still get a good draft pick in 2023, I'll just say we get Dariq Whitehead.

In 2023 Free Agency I try and get Kris Middleton + a center that can space the floor a little with the MLE. I'll pretend we can get Turner with the MLE since I also have no idea why Kris Middleton would want to come to the Jazz.

So then my starting lineup would be:
Mitchell, Middleton, OG, Vanderbilt, Turner.

We'd still have Clarkson, Whitehead, Fonteccino, Kessler, Balmaro off the bench.

That's about the best pretend scenario I can come up with.

This issue of Turner's value around the league is really interesting. All kinds of people say that his value should be reasonably high, but nobody seems to actually want to take him on as part of a real move. I guess free agency next year may provide an answer.

 

[stitches]

Retool is only advisable if the player we are retooling around is committed to this team long-term. Mitchell is not. And our FO knows it, which is why they are listening to trade offers. Noone shopping a top 20-ish player in the league at age 25 if they think he's staying long-term with the team. In essence, I've always been AGAINST trading players of the quality of Mitchell, BUT... that's only if I actually think we have a shot at competing before they want out. And he very possibly already wants out and we are not long before he officially asks out.

So yeah. I personally wouldn't do any of that. Just trade him and lets start next iteration of Jazz basketball and not waste time.

 

[gomretat]

Retool is only advisable if the player we are retooling around is committed to this team long-term. Mitchell is not. And our FO knows it, which is why they are listening to trade offers. Noone shopping a top 20-ish player in the league at age 25 if they think he's staying long-term with the team. In essence, I've always been AGAINST trading players of the quality of Mitchell, BUT... that's only if I actually think we have a shot at competing before they want out. And he very possibly already wants out and we are not long before he officially asks out.

So yeah. I personally wouldn't do any of that. Just trade him and lets start next iteration of Jazz basketball and not waste time.

Not only does the FO know Donny wont stay, the whole league knows it and has for sometime. I would be fine building around him if he was committed to Utah.

 

[Release the Kraken]

So yeah. I personally wouldn't do any of that. Just trade him and lets start next iteration of Jazz basketball and not waste time.

Sounds simple enough unless you’re trying to negotiate with Danny ****ing Ainge.

We don’t necessarily have to retool around him but all the tank Wemby dreams kinda go out the window if he’s in the lineup again this season. We can’t really keep him on the injured reserve or for that matter, play to lose, or his stock falls as a draft capital cash cow.

 

[Engorged On Unborn Gore]

The lack of nerve on this board is absurd.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

Still think the best version of a re-tool has a 1 year quasi-tank built in.

The hard part is that it will be hard to convince Donovan to be willing to sit out games if he isnt actually injured.

But you can trade all the true veteran difference makers on the team (Bogey/Conley/Beverly) and roll with everyone else and play inexperienced players like Udoka/Walker/Bolmaro/Butler/Simone major minutes.

Best case scenario is you still lose enough to be in the bottom 5-8 teams while having key guys play well enough to believe you can do a quick turnaround if you are able to sign the right players and nail your draft picks. Guys like Beasley/Vanderbilt/Simone look good enough to be quality playoff rotation players. Walker or Udoka look good enough to be a 20 MPG type center. Your draft picks are legit and give you enough hope for the potential moving forward to convince Don to stay long-term.

The thing you don't do is mortgage away too many picks in trades unless you get a firm commitment from Donovan that he will sign an extension. You try your best to build it organically into something that when Mitchell becomes a UFA he decides we give him the best chance to win a ring. Or you trade Mitchell in 2023 for basically the same packages you are getting offered now, maybe even better since Utah will have a more credible threat to keeping him.

 

[Release the Kraken]

Still think the best version of a re-tool has a 1 year quasi-tank built in.

The hard part is that it will be hard to convince Donovan to be willing to sit out games if he isnt actually injured.

But you can trade all the true veteran difference makers on the team (Bogey/Conley/Beverly) and roll with everyone else and play inexperienced players like Udoka/Walker/Bolmaro/Butler/Simone major minutes.

Best case scenario is you still lose enough to be in the bottom 5-8 teams while having key guys play well enough to believe you can do a quick turnaround if you are able to sign the right players and nail your draft picks. Guys like Beasley/Vanderbilt/Simone look good enough to be quality playoff rotation players. Walker or Udoka look good enough to be a 20 MPG type center. Your draft picks are legit and give you enough hope for the potential moving forward to convince Don to stay long-term.

The thing you don't do is mortgage away too many picks in trades unless you get a firm commitment from Donovan that he will sign an extension. You try your best to build it organically into something that when Mitchell becomes a UFA he decides we give him the best chance to win a ring. Or you trade Mitchell in 2023 for basically the same packages you are getting offered now, maybe even better since Utah will have a more credible threat to keeping him.

It’s possible but a tough juggling act I imagine. I mean we want him to look good but not so good that we’re winning too many games. And we don’t want to create concerns or suspicion on the injury front either. But I love the idea and the real world development for the players you mentioned that I feel are prime candidates and will show significant improvement. All invaluable down the line in regards to depth and team building.

 

[gomretat]

Still think the best version of a re-tool has a 1 year quasi-tank built in.

The hard part is that it will be hard to convince Donovan to be willing to sit out games if he isnt actually injured.

But you can trade all the true veteran difference makers on the team (Bogey/Conley/Beverly) and roll with everyone else and play inexperienced players like Udoka/Walker/Bolmaro/Butler/Simone major minutes.

Best case scenario is you still lose enough to be in the bottom 5-8 teams while having key guys play well enough to believe you can do a quick turnaround if you are able to sign the right players and nail your draft picks. Guys like Beasley/Vanderbilt/Simone look good enough to be quality playoff rotation players. Walker or Udoka look good enough to be a 20 MPG type center. Your draft picks are legit and give you enough hope for the potential moving forward to convince Don to stay long-term.

The thing you don't do is mortgage away too many picks in trades unless you get a firm commitment from Donovan that he will sign an extension. You try your best to build it organically into something that when Mitchell becomes a UFA he decides we give him the best chance to win a ring. Or you trade Mitchell in 2023 for basically the same packages you are getting offered now, maybe even better since Utah will have a more credible threat to keeping him.

The best version of retool was to keep Rudy and trade Donny with a few other pieces for some young talent and picks but that ship has sailed. As for Donny sitting, Donny will do anything he needs to do in order to maintain the image he and his agents want him to have so I think he would sit out if he was being asked to do so. Key for him at this point is getting his numbers.

 

[stitches]

Still think the best version of a re-tool has a 1 year quasi-tank built in.

The hard part is that it will be hard to convince Donovan to be willing to sit out games if he isnt actually injured.

But you can trade all the true veteran difference makers on the team (Bogey/Conley/Beverly) and roll with everyone else and play inexperienced players like Udoka/Walker/Bolmaro/Butler/Simone major minutes.

Best case scenario is you still lose enough to be in the bottom 5-8 teams while having key guys play well enough to believe you can do a quick turnaround if you are able to sign the right players and nail your draft picks. Guys like Beasley/Vanderbilt/Simone look good enough to be quality playoff rotation players. Walker or Udoka look good enough to be a 20 MPG type center. Your draft picks are legit and give you enough hope for the potential moving forward to convince Don to stay long-term.

The thing you don't do is mortgage away too many picks in trades unless you get a firm commitment from Donovan that he will sign an extension. You try your best to build it organically into something that when Mitchell becomes a UFA he decides we give him the best chance to win a ring. Or you trade Mitchell in 2023 for basically the same packages you are getting offered now, maybe even better since Utah will have a more credible threat to keeping him.

That's the thing though... can you imagine a reasonable confluence of events starting from the situation right now with Donovan's attitude toward the franchise, where we make Donovan sit out the 22-23 season and in 2025 he's like... "oh sure, I'm re-signing with Utah"? What needs to happen here in those 2 seasons past tank year that he will have such a change of heart? Does he fall in love with the LDS church? Or what? IMO we just need to stop with this fantasy and return back to Earth. IMO he doesn't want to leave Utah because we are not competitive. We were no. 1 seed in the West and he was already seeding the seeds for his eventual departure. If his primary concern was competing he wouldn't want to go to NYK. I really think there is nothing we can conceivably do to change his mind.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

That's the thing though... can you imagine a reasonable confluence of events starting from the situation right now with Donovan's attitude toward the franchise, where we make Donovan sit out the 22-23 season and in 2025 he's like... "oh sure, I'm re-signing with Utah"? What needs to happen here in those 2 seasons past tank year that he will have such a change of heart? Does he fall in love with the LDS church? Or what? IMO we just need to stop with this fantasy and return back to Earth. IMO he doesn't want to leave Utah because we are not competitive. We were no. 1 seed in the West and he was already seeding the seeds for his eventual departure. If his primary concern was competing he wouldn't want to go to NYK. I really think there is nothing we can conceivably do to change his mind.

OH yeah, I doubt it happens. IT's threading a needle and would require a lot of luck. I'm just saying if he has to stay on for another year, that's what I would do. Best case scenario is you convince NYK that they are no longer the favorite to sign Mitchell as Utah is clearly better and other destinations (LA/Miami) even ahead of them on his free agency list, so they have to make the move to get him.

Like, winning the lottery, getting Victor, and him obviously being a top 10 talent of all time kind of time kind of luck.

Im 100% team trade Mitchell, but I think you can be really bad with him without really hurting your tank too much and without hurting the value Mitchell could get (will probably be relatively the same next year).

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

The best version of retool was to keep Rudy and trade Donny with a few other pieces for some young talent and picks but that ship has sailed. As for Donny sitting, Donny will do anything he needs to do in order to maintain the image he and his agents want him to have so I think he would sit out if he was being asked to do so. Key for him at this point is getting his numbers.

Keeping Rudy means you win a ton of games. It's nearly impossible to retool around Rudy unfortunately.