Sorry Jazz fans – Ben is the NBA Rookie of the Year

[Bawse Dawg]

So Sixers are the only ones who figured out that throwing the ball to open three point shooters is a good idea? Or is it actually harder than it looks because only LeBron and Simmons run offenses that way.

 

[Deleted member 95]

So Sixers are the only ones who figured out that throwing the ball to open three point shooters is a good idea? Or is it actually harder than it looks because only LeBron and Simmons run offenses that way.

It's the system. Doesn't mean other other teams don't run similar systems with high assist players.

But to add, he plays with great 3 point shooters (who are tall) who can get there shot off with almost no room. It's an advantage not very many teams have.

Convington, Saric, Illyasova are all 6'10 three point threats.

 

[Siro]

Seems a tad harsh attributing the system to giving triple doubles because he brings the ball up, he is the point guard on the team.

If the consensus that Ben is as good in stats due to the system 76ers run what are peoples thoughts on the Jazz system for DM, does the Jazz style hurt or help his game?

Simmons is not good because of the system. He's a very good player. He gets so many TDs because of the system. If Simmons was PGing for the Jazz, he would not average eight and a half assists a game, given how the Jazz move the ball. Rubio's assists went down in half once he joined the Jazz. Assists are, in general, related to the system you're playing. Jordan played off the ball a lot of the time with Chicago. There was one season where, due to personnel issues, Jordan played PG and intiated the offense on every possession. His assists doubled. He didn't become a better passer all of a sudden for one season. The system changed.

Pretty much anyone playing primary ball handler on the Sixers would get plenty of assists.

 

[Siro]

So Sixers are the only ones who figured out that throwing the ball to open three point shooters is a good idea? Or is it actually harder than it looks because only LeBron and Simmons run offenses that way.

They're not. There are other teams that do this, and consequently, they have high assists players. Example, Harden. Like all basic stats, assists aren't a meaningful metric without context.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Seems a tad harsh attributing the system to giving triple doubles because he brings the ball up, he is the point guard on the team.

If the consensus that Ben is as good in stats due to the system 76ers run what are peoples thoughts on the Jazz system for DM, does the Jazz style hurt or help his game?

Simmons is not good at stats because of the system. They just boost his stats.

Simmons would not get the rebounds or assist numbers if he was on the Jazz. But he would still get good numbers. My guess is around 17 ppg, 5 boards and 5 assists. We dont have the PG come back for the rebounds off misses we let the bigs get them and make the outlet pass. We also move the ball around a lot and dont have a primary guy distributing the ball. Look at Rubios assists numbers for an idea of what would happen.

Mitchell is also helped by the system he is in but in a different way. Mitchell is relied on a lot for offense that he probably would not be in other systems. Our system also creates a lot of open looks for players. We are one of the best teams in the NBA and drive and kicks.

 

[Deleted member 95]

After this we should start a thread to talk about all of Ben Simmons' great attributes to make Bawse feel better.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

Let’s not talk about how 6 of Mitchell’s 10 rebounds bounced right to him though.

 

[Deleted member 95]

Let’s not talk about how 6 of Mitchell’s 10 rebounds bounced right to him though.

Good point, let's see how many of Ben's regular season rebounds just bounced to him. Prove our point even more. muh triple doubles.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Let’s not talk about how 6 of Mitchell’s 10 rebounds bounced right to him though.

All but 1 of Mitchell's rebounds were uncontested. It wasnt really impressive. That is how most of Simmons rebounds are as well. It just an inflated stat that does not show he is better or worse at something.

 

[Ron Mexico]

So Sixers are the only ones who figured out that throwing the ball to open three point shooters is a good idea? Or is it actually harder than it looks because only LeBron and Simmons run offenses that way.

No plenty of teams run similar sets. Jazz run them sometimes but not as much. Jazz also dont run a primary ball handler like the 76ers do. So some stats are inflated based on this. That does not mean he is a bad player. Its not an either/or argument like you are trying to create.

 

[Siro]

I hope Bawse Dawg can get his account back from this douche who hacked it.

 

[addictionary]

Seems a tad harsh attributing the system to giving triple doubles because he brings the ball up, he is the point guard on the team.

If the consensus that Ben is as good in stats due to the system 76ers run what are peoples thoughts on the Jazz system for DM, does the Jazz style hurt or help his game?

Hurt I guess coz if he had more shooting bigs, he would have more space to cut and slash.

 

[Bawse Dawg]

I hope Bawse Dawg can get his account back from this douche who hacked it.

It’s me, but it was definitely a mistake to jump into this thread.

People saw that I was pro Simmons and immediately hit me with all the talking points they’ve been throwing out to that PoS Jazzzz dude among others all year, even though they had zilch to do with what I was saying.

I stand behind every post I made 100% until the Mitchell rebounds one. And that one I only made because it was so annoying to see people trying so hard to say that stats mean nothing when I’ve never seen a single poster here do that for any other player in the league and it reeks of ROTY bias to me.

But I will leave because there isn’t much real discussion to be had here. I’ll be back to my old self elsewhere.

 

[FabioJazz]

Say that Simmons is the next LeBron is a disrespect to the King.

Simmons is a point guard who uses his size, goes to the post and passes the ball to one of the great shooter they have (Saric, Covington, JJ Redick, Belinelli). Catch and shoot. All night long.

He is a very good player. But NO WAY he is more talented than Mitchell. Mitchell is a better player.

 

[utahjazzz]

Say that Simmons is the next LeBron is a disrespect to the King.

Simmons is a point guard who uses his size, goes to the post and passes the ball to one of the great shooter they have (Saric, Covington, JJ Redick, Belinelli). Catch and shoot. All night long.

He is a very good player. But NO WAY he is more talented than Mitchell. Mitchell is a better player.

Simmons is better than mitchell in every category~
passing, rebounding, defense, playmaking.
mitchell is only better in perimeter shooting.

9.out of every 10 knowleagable.nba fans would say simmons is the better player, except deluded jazz fans like you and Ron mexico of.course.

 

[Et tu Brute]

Neither Simmons or Mitchell is getting goat talk, so that is a moot point. But yes I like to give you and other Simmons homers a hard time for being unreasonable. Such as thinking Simmons is in a GOAT conversation. Yes, I find it slightly annoying that you and utahjazzz post more about Simmons than about the Jazz who is your supposed favorite team, but I know a lot of it is just trolling. But mostly I like talking about him and showing his flaws that he has a bunch of because you guys loose your minds about it and freak out. So yes, some of it is trolling from me but I guess some of you cant take your own medicine.

I definitely have biases, every sports fan does. I like certain players more than others. I like the Jazz more than other teams and 76ers more than any East team. That makes me watch those teams and scrutinize players more and cheer for them more when I like them.

You are the one who thinks you dont have any bias for some strange reason.

There is no stat from game 1 that shows Simmons was the best player on the court. His teammates played at a very high level. Reddick and Belinilli were incredible and Saric was very good that game. +/-, PER, net rating and so on all show that Simmons had a low impact that game in comparison to his teammates and it was very obvious watching it. But I guess you already admitted that I could be right on this or at least its a reasonable conclusion so I guess we can move on.

I don't hate Simmon's. But between his quotes, his on court elbows and shoulders and more importantly homer fans like you he is hard to cheer for. Thankfully I really enjoy Embiid and his personality and think 76ers coach is great and has a great system. Brown has done wonders for Simmons as well stat wise and have a great team around him. I want him to help the team win though. I feel similar with Simmons that I used to feel with Boozer when he was on my favorite team the Jazz.

You are right it was in the other thread I talked about his defense, my bad. I get all these threads you Simmons homers like to talk about him in. Simmons is a good defender but he was subpar in that first game. He stood around flat footed and lost his guy a few times and got beat off the dribble more than usual. Again for your clarification he was still good but subpar for his usual defense.

He was much better game 2 all around except the final couple minutes when he was useless.

Btw, I am not sure about Brett Brown and Ben long term. I can tell he is frustrated with the 'limitations' that come with Ben not shooting the midrange more. You could tell in his presser after Game 2 that a lot of the breakdown offensively lay at Ben's feet. He didn't say it directly - but it was clearly there.

I am not sure

I dont think any Jazz fans care about that. Mitchell gets a ton of positive attention around the league. He has the respect of most players in the league and outside of Philly/Simmons fans the respect of fans.

I think it is the other way around. Simmons fans cant handle Mitchell's attention and feel a need to belittle him to prop up their guy. Most Jazz fans can admit Simmons is really good and see where there is an argument for ROY of the year with him. Simmons/76ers fans are incapable of doing the same the other way. To me its entertaining, you Simmons fans get very worked up about everything positive said about Mitchell and any body commenting on the many flaws of Simmons game.


I was a huge Allen Iverson fan when he was with Philly. This has made me like them and keep an eye on them ever since. Embiid has made me enjoy watching them again.


He is just like most other 76ers and/or Simmons fan. I enjoy giving him a hard time because he makes himself look really dumb over and over again. Interactions with him irritate some people on this board but they make me laugh. Although I dont really understand the people who are irritated by him and dont just put him on ignore.



We are very used to this happening and know that most of you will be gone when the players leave. We have had it with Russian fans, Turkey fans and so on over the years. Some of the good ones will stick around. We have some great posters from Turkey still despite Okur and Kanter being gone. It also happens with college team fans when we draft their guy. Its just a part of sports. But it is fun to give them a hard time when they are irrational. Such as people on this board who think Exum is being mistreated by Snyder or held back by him.


So here are my questions for you.

Who is your ROY vote?

Who had a better game 1 performance in the playoffs Mitchell or Simmons?

Lol. You know I have been one of those guys that feels Exum had had the shortest of leashes

In answering your questions, I find it hard to be objective. I have seen every game from both. I think my final position is, I don't really mind. Mitchell has had in many ways the best situation to succeed (i.e. total green light and a huge scoring void on the team) but also has the most responsiblity (i.e. if he tanks so does the team) ... I feel that Simmons on the otherhand is pretty much what I had expected. I always believed him to be a point guard or at least point forward - probably surprised he was able to average 15.8 though, thought it might be more like 11-12. His ft shooting was way worse than I thought but I was not surprised by him playing within himself re: jumpshot. You can only judge them on what they did in their particular context. But I would love to relive the season again - with players swapping teams. I wonder how their seasons would have looked. I saw a clip the other day of 'some guy ' who used the 2k simulation thingy ( I think) with Simmons on Jazz this season and had them being knocked out in the 2nd round of the playoffs - averaging 20.8 for the season and about 7 assists. Mitchell on the Sixers were knocked out in the first round (I think) with Mitchell averaging about 17 in that system. Interesting?

I don't think Simmons could have done much more except shoot better from the ft line, which in turn would have ensured he was more of a factor in late game situations. But as you point out, this might be a huge deal. Mitchell could have been more efficient and a tad better defensively.

Philly was a 10 win team two years ago. Utah was a 50 win team last year. People just seem to forget that and assume Hayward accounted for most of those wins. Just as it seems many put down Philly's success largely down to Embiid. That stuff gets cloudy.

All the advanced metrics point to Simmons having had the better season. But I have been there with you guys watching how much responsibility Mitchell has in 4th quarters and where it is the time that Simmons does his least amount of effective work.

It is possible that Mitchell has had the 'better' season - all things considered. But I feel like Simmons' ceiling is insane. I am of course assuming he attempts to shoot more (and make a meaningul amount of them) in the future.

My gut tells me it's a toss-up, but my head says it's clearly Simmons' award.

In all honesty, I think I would be too conflicted to vote But probably Simmons.

In terms of Game 1s, it's hard for me to say Mitchell had a better game because of the result. Simmons got it done. But having said that, Mitchell pretty much did all he could do. I thought both their performances were top 10ish of the 1st matches played. I know you think that is a bit crazy cause Simmons was in your eyes propped up by some great shooting. But I think his Game 2 demonstrates his versatility when he sees a different defensive coverage, and that he perfectly played within the system to facilitate the three point barragein Game 1.

 

[Tom349]

Simmons is not good at stats because of the system. They just boost his stats.

Simmons would not get the rebounds or assist numbers if he was on the Jazz. But he would still get good numbers. My guess is around 17 ppg, 5 boards and 5 assists. We dont have the PG come back for the rebounds off misses we let the bigs get them and make the outlet pass. We also move the ball around a lot and dont have a primary guy distributing the ball. Look at Rubios assists numbers for an idea of what would happen.

Mitchell is also helped by the system he is in but in a different way. Mitchell is relied on a lot for offense that he probably would not be in other systems. Our system also creates a lot of open looks for players. We are one of the best teams in the NBA and drive and kicks.

If Ben Simmons was on this Utah Jazz team, we would play an entirely different system in fact Ben Simmons would be the system, he is one of very few players who you can build a system around. Only other players in the league you would build your system around (not team, system) are Lebron, Westbrook and Giannis. You can build a team around a lot of players like Harden, Curry, Durant and Kawhi but they can fit into any system, its just a matter of finding the best system and players to suit their strengths. The reason Simmons is more likely to be successful like Lebron and unlike Giannis and Westbrook is he has a far greater IQ and is a better defender and he literally only needs a semi decent jump shot to become a higher IQ and better defensive player than Westbrook. Which is an insanely high level.

 

[colton]

He’s a first (or second lol) year player....

And putting ‘be LeBron or you aren’t good enough’ expectations on a guy is the most unfair thing imaginable. The dude looks like ****ing Magic Johnson out there (who also couldn’t shoot).

Fun fact: Magic Johnson shot 81% FT his rookie year. Simmons is shooting 56% FT.

 

[Et tu Brute]

Simmons is not good because of the system. He's a very good player. He gets so many TDs because of the system. If Simmons was PGing for the Jazz, he would not average eight and a half assists a game, given how the Jazz move the ball. Rubio's assists went down in half once he joined the Jazz. Assists are, in general, related to the system you're playing. Jordan played off the ball a lot of the time with Chicago. There was one season where, due to personnel issues, Jordan played PG and intiated the offense on every possession. His assists doubled. He didn't become a better passer all of a sudden for one season. The system changed.

Pretty much anyone playing primary ball handler on the Sixers would get plenty of assists.

Yeah pretty fair. I have noticed Fultz gets a handful when he plays his dozen minutes or so. Most of his are within the flow so to speak.

 

[Tak]

Philly was a 10 win team two years ago. Utah was a 50 win team last year. People just seem to forget that and assume Hayward accounted for most of those wins. Just as it seems many put down Philly's success largely down to Embiid. That stuff gets cloudy.

People seems to forget that Philly was tanking those years, any reference on Simmons's impact on the performance of the 76's is useless because they were losing games on purpose.