The Caravan

[Stars Fan]

Bear in mind that the question of slavery had a lot to do with how the constitution was written. That it is working the way a bunch of slave owners designed it to is not reason enough to decide its worthing continuing imo. I'm not sure what the solution (Giving DC and PR statehood?) but Democrats are not getting the same national representation as Republicans even when they earn more votes. It's a problem.

Slavery is the cracked foundation we built the republic on. We have been collectively paying the price since before the revolution. The Senate did protect "states rights", including slavery. I think there are other reasons for establishing the congress as designed than just protect slave owners though. It also stabilizes the congress and keeps it from making dramatic swings...and therefore not very responsive to populace. The key to taking back the Senate, is to take back the state legislatures, and that, I think, will depend on the gerrymandering corrections on the ballots of several states now. If state and local governments are not representative of the people, we will lose faith in the system.

 

[Stoked]

Slavery, is the cracked foundation we built the republic on. We have been collectively paying the price since before the revolution. The Senate did protect "states rights", including slavery. I think there are other reasons for establishing the congress as designed than just protect slave owners though. It also stabilizes the congress and keeps it from making dramatic swings...and therefore not very responsive to populace. The key to taking back the Senate, is to take back the state legislatures, and that, I think, will depend on the gerrymandering corrections on the ballots of several states now. If state and local governments are not representative of the people, we will lose faith in the system.

Please correct me if I’m wrong. But isn’t pretty much every society tainted to some degree by slavery? Some more than others obviously but it had roots everywhere. Then was slowly abolished.

 

[Red]

People on the left are fond of this claim. Right wing whackos were making similar claims when Obama was elected. I think all of them are way, way off. I do not think either of these administrations are like Hitler at all. I think it's just a very convenient and easy to use scare tactic.

I don't think what you're saying is really the point, however. I'm not aware of any suggestion that either administration was "like" Hitler's. Not in the way you're thinking of it, in any event. There is a saying, attributed to Mark Twain, (but likely a false attribution), that history does not repeat, but that it rhymes. Which to me implies there are templates of behavior that can be expected to play out in a similar fashion, given similar conditions.

Something you may have noticed myself emphasize often enough in the Trump threads, is that Trump appeals to the baser instincts of his core followers. And when there are forces, such as intense cultural changes, occurring in a society, this causes degrees of stress, anxiety, fear, anger in segments of a population, that can be taken advantage of by clever demagogues. Like Trump. This is, after all, basically what Trump is doing by suggesting "Middle Easteners" are hiding in the caravan. He is playing on the "fear of the other", and fear in general. This is a common tactic of an authoritarian. It does not mean that there is an exact equivalency, lurking around the corner, between Trump and Hitler, and that someday we can expect mass atrocities by Trump. It's not suggesting that. What the whole comparison has been about is some see similar conditions between the two eras and nations resulting in a similar reliance on an authority figure promising to restore their nation's greatness, and creating "others" for segments of the population to focus their fear and anger.

That's really very different then the way I believe you are perceiving the observation. But correct me if I'm wrong.

As Timothy Snyder put it: Post Truth is pre-fascism. We are in a Post Truth era, and we have a president that substitutes alternative facts for facts. Today, for instance, he utilized a dog whistle for his core followers by issuing a tweet in which he talk about "this 'bomb' stuff", the dog whistle being putting "bomb" in quotations in order to suggest the so-called MAGA Bomber was a false flag operation. Or so I would interpret that use of quotation marks.

“Fascists despised the small truths of daily existence, loved slogans that resonated like a new religion, and preferred creative myths to history or journalism. They used new media, which at the time was radio, to create a drumbeat of propaganda that aroused feelings before people had time to ascertain facts. And now, as then, many people confused faith in a hugely flawed leader with the truth about the world we all share. Post-truth is pre-fascism.”
― Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century

“As observers of totalitarianism such as Victor Klemperer noticed, truth dies in four modes, all of which we have just witnessed. The first mode is the open hostility to verifiable reality, which takes the form of presenting inventions and lies as if they were facts.”
― Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century

“Fascists rejected reason in the name of will, denying objective truth in favor of a glorious myth articulated by leaders who claimed to give voice to the people. They put a face on globalization, arguing that its complex challenges were the result of a conspiracy against the nation.”

― Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century


“Americans today are no wiser than the Europeans who saw democracy yield to fascism, Nazism, or communism in the twentieth century. One advantage is that we might learn from their experience. Now is a good time to do so.”
― Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century


Now, this is not scare tactics, Joe. This is not fear mongering. Trump practices both. But this is instead simply an effort to learn the lessons of history. It is most unfortunate, IMHO, that comparisons with 1930's Germany cannot be made without folks assuming a type of comparison is being made that suggests Trump=a future Hitler. No, it is to simply suggest other people in other places have placed their faith in leaders without realizing the mistake they are making...

I think all of Snyder's thoughts above address the comparison in a far more meaningful and thoughtful manner then is much more commonly assumed whenever the comparison does arise in conversation. And in particular, I find a great deal of meaning in his very simply observation that "post truth is pre-fascism".

 

[str8line]

I don't think what you're saying is really the point, however. I'm not aware of any suggestion that either administration was "like" Hitler's. Not in the way you're thinking of it, in any event. There is a saying, attributed to Mark Twain, (but likely a false attribution), that history does not repeat, but that it rhymes. Which to me implies there are templates of behavior that can be expected to play out in a similar fashion, given similar conditions.

Something you may have noticed myself emphasize often enough in the Trump threads, is that Trump appeals to the baser instincts of his core followers. And when there are forces, such as intense cultural changes, occurring in a society, this causes degrees of stress, anxiety, fear, anger in segments of a population, that can be taken advantage of by clever demagogues. Like Trump. This is, after all, basically what Trump is doing by suggesting "Middle Easteners" are hiding in the caravan. He is playing on the "fear of the other", and fear in general. This is a common tactic of an authoritarian. It does not mean that there is an exact equivalency, lurking around the corner, between Trump and Hitler, and that someday we can expect mass atrocities by Trump. It's not suggesting that. What the whole comparison has been about is some see similar conditions between the two eras and nations resulting in a similar reliance on an authority figure promising to restore their nation's greatness, and creating "others" for segments of the population to focus their fear and anger.

That's really very different then the way I believe you are perceiving the observation. But correct me if I'm wrong.

As Timothy Snyder put it: Post Truth is pre-fascism. We are in a Post Truth era, and we have a president that substitutes alternative facts for facts. Today, for instance, he utilized a dog whistle for his core followers by issuing a tweet in which he talk about "this 'bomb' stuff", the dog whistle being putting "bomb" in quotations in order to suggest the so-called MAGA Bomber was a false flag operation. Or so I would interpret that use of quotation marks.

“Fascists despised the small truths of daily existence, loved slogans that resonated like a new religion, and preferred creative myths to history or journalism. They used new media, which at the time was radio, to create a drumbeat of propaganda that aroused feelings before people had time to ascertain facts. And now, as then, many people confused faith in a hugely flawed leader with the truth about the world we all share. Post-truth is pre-fascism.”
― Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century

“As observers of totalitarianism such as Victor Klemperer noticed, truth dies in four modes, all of which we have just witnessed. The first mode is the open hostility to verifiable reality, which takes the form of presenting inventions and lies as if they were facts.”
― Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century

“Fascists rejected reason in the name of will, denying objective truth in favor of a glorious myth articulated by leaders who claimed to give voice to the people. They put a face on globalization, arguing that its complex challenges were the result of a conspiracy against the nation.”

― Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century


“Americans today are no wiser than the Europeans who saw democracy yield to fascism, Nazism, or communism in the twentieth century. One advantage is that we might learn from their experience. Now is a good time to do so.”
― Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century


Now, this is not scare tactics, Joe. This is not fear mongering. Trump practices both. But this is instead simply an effort to learn the lessons of history. It is most unfortunate, IMHO, that comparisons with 1930's Germany cannot be made without folks assuming a type of comparison is being made that suggests Trump=a future Hitler. No, it is to simply suggest other people in other places have placed their faith in leaders without realizing the mistake they are making...

I think all of Snyder's thoughts above address the comparison in a far more meaningful and thoughtful manner then is much more commonly assumed whenever the comparison does arise in conversation. And in particular, I find a great deal of meaning in his very simply observation that "post truth is pre-fascism".

What a great explanation of what it means to compare Trump to Hitler, thanks Red.

 

[Stars Fan]

Please correct me if I’m wrong. But isn’t pretty much every society tainted to some degree by slavery? Some more than others obviously but it had roots everywhere. Then was slowly abolished.

I can't cover all the ground I would like to typing on my phone so let me be brief. Madison, one of the key framers of the U.S. constitution, was a slave owner. Jefferson, Washington, Madison and Monroe were all slave owners. So 4 of the first 5 presidents were slave owners. Madison and Jefferson advocated for governmental power to be concentrated in the states with a weak central government, in large part to preserve their slave ownership rights. Hamilton, one the other key framers of the constitution, anchored the federalists who wanted a stronger central government. Washington was also a federalist due, in large part, to his experience with the dysfunctional continental congress during the war. The Republicans and the Federalists compromised over slavery when writing the constitution.

Every territory added to the nation as a state after independence was bitterly fought over to preserve a balance of slave owning and "free" states. The compromise of 1820 was followed by the compromise of 1850. Read up on "bleeding Kansas" to see how bitter it got. A prelude to the civil war was fought out over the issue.

Then, of course, the civil war which is still the bloodiest war in USA history was fought to keep the South in the union. Slavery was the core issue in the cecession movement. And after that we had carpet baggers and failed reconstruction, Jim crow, the kkk, red lining, segregation, pole taxes, open and covert bigotry, and white supremacy.

There may be other nations that are tainted by the despicable institution that was slavery, but I think we would be hard put to match that level of psychological and sociological damage.

Why is this important today? Because the hypocrisy required to accept slavery as a way of life lives on in the hearts of many. Jefferson, the man who wrote "all men are created equal, that they endowed by their maker with certain inalienable rights..." not only owned men, fathered children on at least one of his slaves, but also fought Hamilton to ensure slavery was protected from the abolitionists. That same hypocrisy is echoed in the kkk brothers who would go to church on the sabbath and have no problem hating, persecuting, and lynching their black neighbors. How was that possible on a societal level if not through socialized hypocrisy?

I see echoes of that same hypocrisy today in the MAGA chest thumpers who have no problem calling for due process for Kavanaugh while chanting "lock her up". Confederate flag waving Trump supporters who applaud 45 calling himself a nationalist. These same people revile anything associated with the previous president. The birthers, and haters who claimed Obama was not American, or was gay or Muslim, or socialist, etc.

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[Stars Fan]

What a great explanation of what it means to compare Trump to Hitler, thanks Red.

Ditto

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[idestroyedthetoilet]

I can't cover all the ground I would like to typing on my phone so let me be brief. Madison, one of the key framers of the U.S. constitution, was a slave owner. Jefferson, Washington, Madison and Monroe were all slave owners. So 4 of the first 5 presidents were slave owners. Madison and Jefferson advocated for governmental power to be concentrated in the states with a weak central government, in large part to preserve their slave ownership rights. Hamilton, one the other key framers of the constitution, anchored the federalists who wanted a stronger central government. Washington was also a federalist due, in large part, to his experience with the dysfunctional continental congress during the war. The Republicans and the Federalists compromised over slavery when writing the constitution.

Every territory added to the nation as a state after independence was bitterly fought over to preserve a balance of slave owning and "free" states. The compromise of 1820 was followed by the compromise of 1850. Read up on "bleeding Kansas" to see how bitter it got. A prelude to the civil war was fought out over the issue.

Then, of course, the civil war which is still the bloodiest war in USA history was fought to keep the South in the union. Slavery was the core issue in the succession movement. And after that we had carpet baggers and failed reconstruction, Jim crow, the kkk, red lining, segregation, pole taxes, open and covert bigotry, and white supremacy.

There may be other nations that are tainted by the despicable institution that was slavery, but I think we would be hard put to match that level of psychological and sociological damage.

Why is this important today? Because the hypocrisy required to accept slavery as a way of life lives on in the hearts of many. Jefferson, the man who wrote "all men are created equal, that they endowed by their maker with certain inalienable rights..." not only owned men, fathered children on at least one of his slaves, but also fought Hamilton to ensure slavery was protected from the abolitionists. That same hypocrisy is echoed in the kkk brothers who would go to church on the sabbath and have no problem hating, persecuting, and lynching their black neighbors. How was that possible on a societal level if not through socialized hypocrisy?

I see echoes of that same hypocrisy today in the MAGA chest thumpers who have no problem calling for due process for Kavanaugh while chanting "lock her up". Confederate flag waving Trump supporters who applaud 45 calling himself a nationalist. These same people revile anything associated with the previous president. The birthers, and haters who claimed Obama was not American, or was gay or Muslim, or socialist, etc.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using JazzFanz mobile app

Are you going to respond to stoked or were you quoting him for a platform?

 

[Stoked]

@Red I don’t discount anything you’ve said.

I’m just saying that the “America was founded on racism” argument holds little weight with me. Simply because EVERYONE was.

Random thoughts:

Also brief hahahahaha. Funny. Longer post than I have ever made.

**** MAGA. We’ve always been great but have miles and miles and miles to go. So far to go that the goal isn’t even visible. But we have come far as ****. So many have been short changes in so many ways.

 

[Zombie]

I can't cover all the ground I would like to typing on my phone so let me be brief. Madison, one of the key framers of the U.S. constitution, was a slave owner. Jefferson, Washington, Madison and Monroe were all slave owners. So 4 of the first 5 presidents were slave owners. Madison and Jefferson advocated for governmental power to be concentrated in the states with a weak central government, in large part to preserve their slave ownership rights. Hamilton, one the other key framers of the constitution, anchored the federalists who wanted a stronger central government. Washington was also a federalist due, in large part, to his experience with the dysfunctional continental congress during the war. The Republicans and the Federalists compromised over slavery when writing the constitution.

Every territory added to the nation as a state after independence was bitterly fought over to preserve a balance of slave owning and "free" states. The compromise of 1820 was followed by the compromise of 1850. Read up on "bleeding Kansas" to see how bitter it got. A prelude to the civil war was fought out over the issue.

Then, of course, the civil war which is still the bloodiest war in USA history was fought to keep the South in the union. Slavery was the core issue in the succession movement. And after that we had carpet baggers and failed reconstruction, Jim crow, the kkk, red lining, segregation, pole taxes, open and covert bigotry, and white supremacy.

There may be other nations that are tainted by the despicable institution that was slavery, but I think we would be hard put to match that level of psychological and sociological damage.

Why is this important today? Because the hypocrisy required to accept slavery as a way of life lives on in the hearts of many. Jefferson, the man who wrote "all men are created equal, that they endowed by their maker with certain inalienable rights..." not only owned men, fathered children on at least one of his slaves, but also fought Hamilton to ensure slavery was protected from the abolitionists. That same hypocrisy is echoed in the kkk brothers who would go to church on the sabbath and have no problem hating, persecuting, and lynching their black neighbors. How was that possible on a societal level if not through socialized hypocrisy?

I see echoes of that same hypocrisy today in the MAGA chest thumpers who have no problem calling for due process for Kavanaugh while chanting "lock her up". Confederate flag waving Trump supporters who applaud 45 calling himself a nationalist. These same people revile anything associated with the previous president. The birthers, and haters who claimed Obama was not American, or was gay or Muslim, or socialist, etc.

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Great post. The US really is unique, especially among advanced nations,in just how much we owe our constitutional structure and institutional history to slavery and Jim Crow.

 

[Stoked]

Great post. The US really is unique, especially among advanced nations,in just how much we owe our constitutional structure and institutional history to slavery and Jim Crow.

Edit: my phone says I said this. I didn’t. @Star fan did. Clarification only

 

[Zombie]

Edit: my phone says I said this. I didn’t. @Star fan did. Clarification only

That's my bad, stupid multi-quote mishap.

 

[Stoked]

That's my bad, stupid multi-quote mishap.

Get you life together. Will ya?! Lmfao

 

[Zombie]

Get you life together. Will ya?! Lmfao

**** man, I'm trying lol

 

[LogGrad98]

Please correct me if I’m wrong. But isn’t pretty much every society tainted to some degree by slavery? Some more than others obviously but it had roots everywhere. Then was slowly abolished.

Yes. African nations enslaved each other A decent number of slave in the British colonies were purchased from African slave traders. It is a stain on the world. There were places where slaves had it much worse than in the US but we were just about the only country to basically go industrial with it. Plantations required almost unheard-of numbers of slaves under a single owner. In lots of places, like Brittain, most slaves were household servants and did undesirable jobs. Pretty much only in the US, and some European colonies, were they more or less considered not much above cattle.

 

[fishonjazz]

I can't cover all the ground I would like to typing on my phone so let me be brief. Madison, one of the key framers of the U.S. constitution, was a slave owner. Jefferson, Washington, Madison and Monroe were all slave owners. So 4 of the first 5 presidents were slave owners. Madison and Jefferson advocated for governmental power to be concentrated in the states with a weak central government, in large part to preserve their slave ownership rights. Hamilton, one the other key framers of the constitution, anchored the federalists who wanted a stronger central government. Washington was also a federalist due, in large part, to his experience with the dysfunctional continental congress during the war. The Republicans and the Federalists compromised over slavery when writing the constitution.

Every territory added to the nation as a state after independence was bitterly fought over to preserve a balance of slave owning and "free" states. The compromise of 1820 was followed by the compromise of 1850. Read up on "bleeding Kansas" to see how bitter it got. A prelude to the civil war was fought out over the issue.

Then, of course, the civil war which is still the bloodiest war in USA history was fought to keep the South in the union. Slavery was the core issue in the succession movement. And after that we had carpet baggers and failed reconstruction, Jim crow, the kkk, red lining, segregation, pole taxes, open and covert bigotry, and white supremacy.

There may be other nations that are tainted by the despicable institution that was slavery, but I think we would be hard put to match that level of psychological and sociological damage.

Why is this important today? Because the hypocrisy required to accept slavery as a way of life lives on in the hearts of many. Jefferson, the man who wrote "all men are created equal, that they endowed by their maker with certain inalienable rights..." not only owned men, fathered children on at least one of his slaves, but also fought Hamilton to ensure slavery was protected from the abolitionists. That same hypocrisy is echoed in the kkk brothers who would go to church on the sabbath and have no problem hating, persecuting, and lynching their black neighbors. How was that possible on a societal level if not through socialized hypocrisy?

I see echoes of that same hypocrisy today in the MAGA chest thumpers who have no problem calling for due process for Kavanaugh while chanting "lock her up". Confederate flag waving Trump supporters who applaud 45 calling himself a nationalist. These same people revile anything associated with the previous president. The birthers, and haters who claimed Obama was not American, or was gay or Muslim, or socialist, etc.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using JazzFanz mobile app

Who is 45 and why is he called that?

 

[Stars Fan]

Are you going to respond to stoked or were you quoting him for a platform?

WhaaChoo tawkin bout willis?

1. I did respond to @Stoked. I buried the lead. But, I directly responded to his posted question.

2. Of course I used it to spout my cockamamie ideas, my platform, as you put it. This is the Jazzfanz general discussion board. Is that somehow inappropriate in your opinion? I got a little more long winded than I intended, but it was late and MAGA got me all riled up.

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[Stars Fan]

@Red I don’t discount anything you’ve said.

I’m just saying that the “America was founded on racism” argument holds little weight with me. Simply because EVERYONE was.

Random thoughts:

Also brief hahahahaha. Funny. Longer post than I have ever made.

**** MAGA. We’ve always been great but have miles and miles and miles to go. So far to go that the goal isn’t even visible. But we have come far as ****. So many have been short changes in so many ways.

I did get long winded... more than I thought when I started, lol.

I'm not saying America was founded solely on slavery, just that we don't pay enough attention to the big role it did play.

And as flawed as we are, we are great and have been from the start. I agree with you on that.





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[Stars Fan]

Who is 45 and why is he called that?

45 is President Trump, because he is the 45th president of the USA.
Why is he called that? Because I'm just lazy. Lol

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[Red]

What a great explanation of what it means to compare Trump to Hitler, thanks Red.

Ditto

I think, in addition to drawing lessons from authoritarian movements in past democracies, it's revealing to understand the rise of an authoritarianism in present day democracies. In reading about the upcoming election in Brazil, for example, the front runner reads like a Trump 2.0. These threats to democracy are not confined to the United States. There appears to be a movement much broader in nature:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...bolsonaro-fascist_us_5bd1f3ece4b0a8f17ef57eee

And in the United States, this trend toward authoritarianism is aided by a political party complicit, for its own goals and ends, but just as dangerous, IMHO:

“The less popular of the two parties controls every lever of power at the federal level, as well as the majority of statehouses. The party that exercises such control proposes few policies that are popular with the society at large, and several that are generally unpopular—and thus must either fear democracy or weaken it.”
― Timothy Snyder, On Tyranny: Twenty Lessons from the Twentieth Century

 

[Red]

Trump has been a master at controlling what the media will elevate to "front page" coverage. His presidency is a reality tv show, basically. Thus, it's no surprise to learn that he must find it frustrating to see the MAGA Bomber story replacing his emphasis on the "dangers" represented by the caravan as the most covered story. He does not want the bomber knocking his reality show out of first place in the ratings:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump...th-his-nightmare-a-news-cycle-he-cant-control