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KqWIN said:
Man, you guys really hate elite shooters who actually try to play defense.

Niang had one bad series. Let me guess, there is a high overlap in the people that think he’s trash and those who actually believe he forgot how to shoot at the beginning of the season.

Were people demanding that Mitchell be ousted after having back to back horrific playoff series? Or is that obviously a stupid way to evaluate a player as a whole…
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Do or do not, there is no try.

And Niang is a do-not, both on defense and on shooting better than 20% in the playoffs.

Utterly useless.
 
KqWIN said:
Man, you guys really hate elite shooters who actually try to play defense.

Niang had one bad series. Let me guess, there is a high overlap in the people that think he’s trash and those who actually believe he forgot how to shoot at the beginning of the season.

Were people demanding that Mitchell be ousted after having back to back horrific playoff series? Or is that obviously a stupid way to evaluate a player as a whole…
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If you’re gonna classify Niang as an “elite” shooter, there’s no reason for us to have a conversation about it because you’re just flat-out wrong.

“Elite” shooters can put the ball in the hoop when the stakes are at their highest. We just finished what, year 3 of the Niang experiment? We have have gotten NOTHING out of him when it’s mattered most. But yeah, he just needs more time, right? Let’s run Niang back for another year and see what that gets us.
 
Udidthizz said:
Any interest in trying to rehabilitate Justise Winslow? Been injured a lot, but he used to be decent and is still young.
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I know I’m crazy but I think Winslow, Kidd-Gilchrist, Hollis-Jefferson and even Mudiay are all guys I wouldn’t mind having on our summer league squad or in training camp to see what they bring. They all have size and are athletic. I know they’re not big time scorers or 3-D guys but the length, athleticism and age is appropriate for each one to fit with our timeline. See if they’re amenable to coaching and development. Sign a couple of them to minimum or two way contracts and see if one works out like Cameron Payne did.
I’m of the opinion that you can’t teach size/athleticism but you can improve shooting mechanics and game understanding.
 
Jazzman12 said:
If you’re gonna classify Niang as an “elite” shooter, there’s no reason for us to have a conversation about it because you’re just flat-out wrong.

“Elite” shooters can put the ball in the hoop when the stakes are at their highest. We just finished what, year 3 of the Niang experiment? We have have gotten NOTHING out of him when it’s mattered most. But yeah, he just needs more time, right? Let’s run Niang back for another year and see what that gets us.
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DL would but he got fired
 
LogGrad98 said:
Do or do not, there is no try.

And Niang is a do-not, both on defense and on shooting better than 20% in the playoffs.

Utterly useless.
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His defense and effort on that end is as good or better than half our rotation. In fact, he's probably the only non big in our rotation who shows some life and awareness when he's off the ball.

Again, if you want to judge him by 1-2 playoff series....that's your own thing. I think that is an idiot way to judge a player and if you do judge a player that way, I do have to wonder what your thoughts were after Donovan Mitchell after his first couple of series. Did his horrific playoff performance mold your entire opinion of him? It didn't for me and I see no reason to feel that way about Niang either.
 
Jazzman12 said:
If you’re gonna classify Niang as an “elite” shooter, there’s no reason for us to have a conversation about it because you’re just flat-out wrong.

“Elite” shooters can put the ball in the hoop when the stakes are at their highest. We just finished what, year 3 of the Niang experiment? We have have gotten NOTHING out of him when it’s mattered most. But yeah, he just needs more time, right? Let’s run Niang back for another year and see what that gets us.
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Elite shooters can also miss during important moments and have a bad series. We can agree to disagree, but I don't define a shooter by a movie esque narrative where the only thing that matters is "when it matters most". I define a shooter by a larger body of work because that is the correct way to define a shooter.

If Niang's bad playoff series is the only argument here, too each their own. I prefer to do my analysis using a more holistic approach. If people choose to analyze a player solely off the last series he played, I hope they stay consistent.
 
Jazzman12 said:
If you’re gonna classify Niang as an “elite” shooter, there’s no reason for us to have a conversation about it because you’re just flat-out wrong.

“Elite” shooters can put the ball in the hoop when the stakes are at their highest. We just finished what, year 3 of the Niang experiment? We have have gotten NOTHING out of him when it’s mattered most. But yeah, he just needs more time, right? Let’s run Niang back for another year and see what that gets us.
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This.

I've been saying this about Niang for years now. The guy is a standstill shooter who can only spot up with his feet already set. He has a slow release and can't shoot off the bounce or off the dribble, just no fluidity to his shooting mechanics whatsoever.

Korver/Reddicks/Klay/Allen constantly make runs off the ball in directions away from the basket then catch, square their body and release the shot, all in a matter of 1-2 seconds. Elite shooters can always get their shots off regardless of opponent's defensive scheme, even if they had to put the ball on the deck and find a way to get themselves open.

Niang's stiff and predictable mechanic heavily relies on his teammate's creation and when the opponent has the length/athleticism to disrupt our passing lane to prevent him from receiving the ball at his ideal spot, his fg% plummets.
 
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KqWIN said:
His defense and effort on that end is as good or better than half our rotation. In fact, he's probably the only non big in our rotation who shows some life and awareness when he's off the ball.

Again, if you want to judge him by 1-2 playoff series....that's your own thing. I think that is an idiot way to judge a player and if you do judge a player that way, I do have to wonder what your thoughts were after Donovan Mitchell after his first couple of series. Did his horrific playoff performance mold your entire opinion of him? It didn't for me and I see no reason to feel that way about Niang either.
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Yes, judging a player based on the entirety of their playoff performances is ridiculous. We should never judge basketball players on their ability to play basketball. How silly of me.
 
LogGrad98 said:
Yes, judging a player based on the entirety of their playoff performances is ridiculous. We should never judge basketball players on their ability to play basketball. How silly of me.
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The entirety of their playoff performances would be one thing, but doesn't seem like we're even doing that here. We're doing one playoff series.

I'm judging Niang on his entire career. You're judging it on a series. It's funny you made the argument against yourself, so I think we're done here.
 
KqWIN said:
Elite shooters can also miss during important moments and have a bad series. We can agree to disagree, but I don't define a shooter by a movie esque narrative where the only thing that matters is "when it matters most". I define a shooter by a larger body of work because that is the correct way to define a shooter.

If Niang's bad playoff series is the only argument here, too each their own. I prefer to do my analysis using a more holistic approach. If people choose to analyze a player solely off the last series he played, I hope they stay consistent.
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It feels like ages since I’ve been baited into a really silly argument on Jazzfanz, so I guess I’ll bite on this one. Your argument has already been torn to shreds by other posters who have done so far more eloquently than I can, but hey, the more the merrier, right?

First of all, quit comparing Mitchell’s playoff series as a rookie or 2nd year player to that of a veteran project like Niang. If you searched the internet in it’s entirety, could you possibly find a more apples-to-oranges type of argument? Mitchell was a young player who was the centerpiece of our team. He literally had the expectations of an entire franchise thrust upon his shoulders and if memory serves me correctly, didn’t he manage to rise to the occasion and carry his team to a playoff victory over a favored OKC squad featuring Westbrook and Paul George? Are we really comparing a guy with a playoff scoring average of around 35ppg to Georges Niang??

As was already mentioned, Niang basically fails every metric necessary to be considered an elite shooter- be it in his regular season performance or playoffs. He can’t get his shot off quickly (a hallmark trait of elite shooters), cannot create his own shot in any manner, is abysmal shooting off the dribble, can’t get to the rack when the jumper isn’t falling, can’t get to the foul line, and so on and so on. Niang has ONE NBA skillset: He can knock down 3 pointers at a decent rate when the Defense is cheating over to another player, leaving him open to take an uncontested shot. That is the beginning, middle, and end of the list of things Niang does well.

Probably worse than all of that is the fact that him returning to this team only serves as a huge roadblock to the development of other players who might actually possess a variety of NBA skills that can be developed. I don’t know what this “Holistic Approach” is that you take when evaluating players but you might want to take a holistic approach towards reviewing your holistic approach because it’s complete ****.
 
If he comes cheap and is the 9th or tenth man, I’m okay with niang. No other condition. I just don’t see him improving much more-I dont think he’ll have a career arc like Royce. I’d rather grab either someone with more potential or a vet that plays better D.
 
It is underrated but Niang can throw the lob pass to Rudy. We need that skill from all of our players except the center spot.
 
Jazzman12 said:
It feels like ages since I’ve been baited into a really silly argument on Jazzfanz, so I guess I’ll bite on this one. Your argument has already been torn to shreds by other posters who have done so far more eloquently than I can, but hey, the more the merrier, right?

First of all, quit comparing Mitchell’s playoff series as a rookie or 2nd year player to that of a veteran project like Niang. If you searched the internet in it’s entirety, could you possibly find a more apples-to-oranges type of argument? Mitchell was a young player who was the centerpiece of our team. He literally had the expectations of an entire franchise thrust upon his shoulders and if memory serves me correctly, didn’t he manage to rise to the occasion and carry his team to a playoff victory over a favored OKC squad featuring Westbrook and Paul George? Are we really comparing a guy with a playoff scoring average of around 35ppg to Georges Niang??

As was already mentioned, Niang basically fails every metric necessary to be considered an elite shooter- be it in his regular season performance or playoffs. He can’t get his shot off quickly (a hallmark trait of elite shooters), cannot create his own shot in any manner, is abysmal shooting off the dribble, can’t get to the rack when the jumper isn’t falling, can’t get to the foul line, and so on and so on. Niang has ONE NBA skillset: He can knock down 3 pointers at a decent rate when the Defense is cheating over to another player, leaving him open to take an uncontested shot. That is the beginning, middle, and end of the list of things Niang does well.

Probably worse than all of that is the fact that him returning to this team only serves as a huge roadblock to the development of other players who might actually possess a variety of NBA skills that can be developed. I don’t know what this “Holistic Approach” is that you take when evaluating players but you might want to take a holistic approach towards reviewing your holistic approach because it’s complete ****.
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I guess if you say the argument is ripped to shreds it becomes true? I'm not really seeing it. Everyone keeps mentioning the terrible playoff series and I have acknowledged that it indeed terrible. What it comes down to is how we should evaluate players. Should we evaluate them by a larger body of work, or simply from their most recent playoff series?

I believe that we should take a more holistic view and literally no one has explained to me how that's a bad take. Seriously, if anyone can tell why that's incorrect I'd love to hear it. Instead, everyone just regurgitates that his last playoff series was bad. And to what effect? I've explained why that's not how I evaluate things. Mitchell is great example of how playoff performance can change so suddenly. Hell, Niang is a great example of this as well. He was really good against DEN. He was really bad against LAC. What gives? Fact is, there is a ton of variance in small sizes and you probably should form your opinion entirely from the last SSS.

As far as being an "elite" shooter, you know what I mean by that. If you really think that he is "elite" because he can make shots in the same way that Kevin Durant does you I don't know what to tell you. Of course I'm talking about his ability to shoot 3's in a catch in situation. That's what his role is and he's very good at. If you want to make the semantics argument and say he's elite because he doesn't shoot like KD, fine. That was never my argument in the first place. My point is that Niang is great at doing something that is highly valued in this league.

The last point is honestly laughable. If Niang is so awful, how is he blocking all of these young promising players? He's not. He's playing because he's better than them. It does make everything add up. We want Niang gone because he's the bogeyman that's preventing all of our amazing young talent from flourishing. Right...it all makes sense now. The irony is, Niang is that guy you're talking about. He developed his game, earned his playing time, and he performed well as a rotation player this year.

PS: I do respect that when you don't know what a word means, you use that as a personal insult. 10/10 funniest thing I've seen on this forum.
 
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KqWIN said:
The entirety of their playoff performances would be one thing, but doesn't seem like we're even doing that here. We're doing one playoff series.

I'm judging Niang on his entire career. You're judging it on a series. It's funny you made the argument against yourself, so I think we're done here.
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It is based on his entire playoffs performances. How is that irrelevant?
 
LogGrad98 said:
It is based on his entire playoffs performances. How is that irrelevant?
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It’s not irrelevant. I’m saying it is and you’re only considering one playoff series. When you cite a 20% 3 point shooter stat and define him as that, that is a one series number.

It’s also not the only thing that’s relevant. Countless examples of players who play good/bad in the playoffs until they don’t. That’s just the nature of small sample sizes.
 
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