Yesterday - Bundy Ranch

[franklin]

Can you even imagine the existence of intellectual believers in ideas like Malthusian overpopulation horrors, planetary pollution issues, and nightmares like thermonuclear war who decide they must, for the sake of the world, just achieve some political objective, such as restoring vast tracts of wilderness across planet earth? I not only know they exist, I know they believe they are doing a good and necessary thing to reduce world population to less than 1/6 our present global population. Getting government agencies to facilitate specific objectives, in their minds, would justify a little side show in the Nevada desert:

That's one way to explain away the will of the voters after being educated by intelligentsia about the need for wilderness, or hunters and outdoorspeople enjoying it, or big city Easterners wishing they hadn't done away with all of theirs. But I suppose this false flag has been in operation since Teddy Rosevelt set aside Yellowstone.

send out some signals about an intended forcible confrontation with a deranged misfit who prattles nonsense about constitutional notions nobody has ever heard of since Lincoln, contrive to set up some super-militant "patriot" group to seize control from the government, and in general pursue a newsworthy path for months, perhaps, becoming increasingly offensive to the general public. Make the "patriots" so off-center everybody will just hate them, and go along with some draconian new legislation that will require government passes/ security clearances for anyone to enter BLM or Forest Service lands for any reason.

One thing about conspiracy theorists is they're so paranoid they always turn on their own people. You'd do well to take pause and think about just how many people you're trying to implicate in this, and everything else is one, conspiracy. Way too many people to keep silent, dude.

 

[babe]

Dude, I know what a false flag is. I believe the conflict in Vietnam was escalated because of one. I see what you're saying, and I will even give you some credit; it's possible. I just don't think it's likely. Do they happen? Ya, I think they do. Is the Bundy situation one of them? Nope.

Anyway, I was just poking fun at the fact that you can't make a post without mentioning socialism, progressives, and now false flags. I was semi-serious about disclosure though; what are your thoughts on that? My prediction is before 2020 we will have it.

I don't know anyone who is in any militia, that I know of. I do know some BLM people, though. I even knew a one-time chief of the BLM from Utah. I read a lot of stuff. I read some left-wing wackos, I could even count some marxists as "friends". I know some CFR people, I am related to some, as well as the local affiliate the Salt Lake Committee on Foreign Relations. I have one friend who has been since I knew him first, a UN official.

when I was a kid, I was most impressed by my grandpa, an absolute Democratic partisan. I sorta got it from him that "Republicans" don't care about people, just money. I tried to get Lyndon LaRouche on the Democratic Party ticket here in Utah in the year 2000. I voted for him a couple of times when he was on the ticket. I am related to a former Democratic congressmen from Utah enough that I have sat on his lawn chairs and drank his cool-aid. I have worked for Democratic people quite happily. They treated me very good. I have also worked for people who are close to Benjamin Netanyahu, who have homes in Israel. I have worked with people from Iran, Taiwan, Afghanistan, Japan. . . worked for a Japanese company once. . . .,

I have good reason to believe Bill Clinton took the Democratic Party over the cliff and made it into a mere Republican-controlled subsidiary, considering the nature of David Rockefeller's influence today. I believe Unions have generally been co-opted by management interests as well. I think the nature of the UN is basically fascist in that elected officials no longer have much influence and corporate interests do.

I know Nelson Rockefeller pretty much "owned" Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines, and I know that the Kennedys pretty much "owned" Benigno Aquino and subsequently his wife Corazon. I invested in mining corporations in the Philippines still owned principally by the Marcos family. My first wife's uncle was a high official in the Marcos administration, my second wife worked for a Utah State Democratic Party chairman, my third wife is very active in Utah Republican Party politics, and is this year a delegate to the State GOP convention and a supporter of Mia Love. She was formerly a big supporter of a black Illinois senatorial candidate running against Barry Obama, and others.

I ran once for the Utah house as a "Constitution Party" candidate, and got an endorsement from a gay rights group and about 380 votes, even. I am thinking of starting a third party called the "American Principles Party", nominally centered on issues of human liberty and the rights of ordinary persons. I'm sorta anti-Authoritarian, having been sorta that way myself and addicted to my own ideas. Trying to recover from the delusions of "rightness".

I have a personal interest in grazing rights, and it would be financially favorable to me in a rather important way if my "grazing preference" were solidly in my hands, even to the extent that it meant I had to pay property tax on it.

I think government "management" of lands encumbered with a grazing property right is still good, provided only that it is uncorrupt and that nobody thinks I don't "own" the grazing use.

Utah, and other states, would benefit greatly if grazing, mineral, and other beneficial uses of land were taxable holdings, and I think it could be better managed locally than nationally. It is entirely true that the forage consumed by a cow in a month is worth $20 as a basic rental rate, and that a grazing right is worth about as much as five cows, that is $5000 per cow that can be fed on grazing allotment. Thus Bundy's grazing right is worth at least $5 M, and the government should pay him that much if say, a turtle or a solar plant is the higher and best use of it. The water right is additional. . . .

I could go on. Maybe it will take me twenty more years to do full disclosure.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I am disappointed by how things twisted at Bundy ranch. Not at all surprised, but generally, the good folk that first showed up on the scene in all sincerity to help and to just be a voice that justice is done, have mostly gone. They have been worn out and replaced by people that are now what many of you described early on.. boys playing army. Now, most of these guys are true badasses and almost all have extensive military backgrounds, but their motives are not one and the same as the original supporters we first enjoyed speaking and visiting with.

I am done going to the ranch. It is a lost cause because too many good well-meaning people got frustrated by the inflow of maniacs.

I have not and likely will not give up on seeing the corruption investigated, but my badass atty advised me to take a step back and prepare a fight in Utah. Can't say much about that, but it made perfect sense to me. We're still hoping force an investigation for the last couple decades of abuse in NV, but we stand a better chance winning on the events that will shortly be more focused on Utah.

I know that sounds crazy to most and, fortunately for us all, I am exhausted and lack any desire to debate these things on a message board. (with all due respect, of course)

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I am disappointed by how things twisted at Bundy ranch. Not at all surprised, but generally, the good folk that first showed up on the scene in all sincerity to help and to just be a voice that justice is done, have mostly gone. They have been worn out and replaced by people that are now what many of you described early on.. boys playing army. Now, most of these guys are true badasses and almost all have extensive military backgrounds, but their motives are not one and the same as the original supporters we first enjoyed speaking and visiting with.

I am done going to the ranch. It is a lost cause because too many good well-meaning people got frustrated by the inflow of maniacs.

I have not and likely will not give up on seeing the corruption investigated, but my badass atty advised me to take a step back and prepare a fight in Utah. Can't say much about that, but it made perfect sense to me. We're still hoping force an investigation for the last couple decades of abuse in NV, but we stand a better chance winning on the events that will shortly be more focused on Utah.

I know that sounds crazy to most and, fortunately for us all, I am exhausted and lack any desire to debate these things on a message board. (with all due respect, of course)

And this result is a surprise to you?

For every wrong done to a responsible gun owner, the NRA nut jobs take up the cause. For every environmental wrong done there are Sierra Club nut jobs taking up the cause. For every animal abuse cause, there are PETA nut jobs there to take over. The list is endless. Do what you need to, there really isn't anything else to do.

 

[Dr. Jones]

I am disappointed by how things twisted at Bundy ranch. Not at all surprised, but generally, the good folk that first showed up on the scene in all sincerity to help and to just be a voice that justice is done, have mostly gone. They have been worn out and replaced by people that are now what many of you described early on.. boys playing army. Now, most of these guys are true badasses and almost all have extensive military backgrounds, but their motives are not one and the same as the original supporters we first enjoyed speaking and visiting with.

I am done going to the ranch. It is a lost cause because too many good well-meaning people got frustrated by the inflow of maniacs.

I have not and likely will not give up on seeing the corruption investigated, but my badass atty advised me to take a step back and prepare a fight in Utah. Can't say much about that, but it made perfect sense to me. We're still hoping force an investigation for the last couple decades of abuse in NV, but we stand a better chance winning on the events that will shortly be more focused on Utah.

I know that sounds crazy to most and, fortunately for us all, I am exhausted and lack any desire to debate these things on a message board. (with all due respect, of course)

And this result is a surprise to you?

For every wrong done to a responsible gun owner, the NRA nut jobs take up the cause. For every environmental wrong done there are Sierra Club nut jobs taking up the cause. For every animal abuse cause, there are PETA nut jobs there to take over. The list is endless. Do what you need to, there really isn't anything else to do.

Your last sentence, though uber simple, I found somewhat profound in this moment.

 

[VINYLONE]

For every wrong done to a responsible gun owner, the NRA nut jobs take up the cause.

Ain't it the truth!

 

[Dr. Jones]

I'm confused. Am I the nutjob here?

 

[Darkwing Duck]

Your last sentence, though uber simple, I found somewhat profound in this moment.

Which is why I didn't understand why you decided to go on the rants you made in this thread which are the same type of positions those nut jobs take. Didn't see why coming on telling us we don't essentially didn't deserve to be Americans based on information we didn't have that you were unable or unwilling to produce nor may necessarily agree with would in any case help your cause. That certainly didn't fit the "do what you need to" mantra.

 

[Dr. Jones]

Which is why I didn't understand why you decided to go on the rants you made in this thread which are the same type of positions those nut jobs take. Didn't see why coming on telling us we don't essentially didn't deserve to be Americans based on information we didn't have that you were unable or unwilling to produce nor may necessarily agree with would in any case help your cause. That certainly didn't fit the "do what you need to" mantra.

Oh c'mon bro.. I said the timing was poor to share but would shortly and I did. I'm pretty normal guy that got damn pissed about the corruption. DAMN pissed.
I'm sure that made me more hyperbolic than I normally would be. But I still don't see how we've just become so 'okay' with the **** people in power pull to the detriment of the common people. That's okay though. Really.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

But I still don't see how we've just become so 'okay' with the **** people in power pull to the detriment of the common people. That's okay though. Really.

When politics is about how close you toe the party line and not the qualities of the individual is when that happens.

 

[Dr. Jones]

When politics is about how close you toe the party line and not the qualities of the individual is when that happens.

I think it's simpler than that. Greed.
Write a big check and half these guys would switch parties in a minute.

 

[Darkwing Duck]

I think it's simpler than that. Greed.
Write a big check and half these guys would switch parties in a minute.

Can't have one without the other in this type of case. A quality individual probably doesn't have unscrupulous greed.

 

[babe]

When politics is about how close you toe the party line and not the qualities of the individual is when that happens.

In the sixties I watched political conventions live on TV. Yeah, the cigar-smoking big bellies went behind their closed doors to make their deals, but it was pretty clear the results were in question until the votes were cast. . . .

Now the national conventions are pretty much extended staged "ads" and the whole show is orchestrated from the top down.

I think you've put the truth down pretty clearly, and consisely. "Greed" has always been there, but now both major parties are wholly-owned and operated "shows", and nobody really has a chance unless they are doing the part they're expected to do.

 

[sirkickyass]

Oh c'mon bro.. I said the timing was poor to share but would shortly and I did.

Did I miss the post that backed up that laundry list of assertions?

 

[babe]

Did I miss the post that backed up that laundry list of assertions?

You saw the list he was referring to the same way I did. You were, however, asking for specific facts to back up the assertions. I don't think we need to try the case in this thread.

If PKM considers it appropriate, and you could assert your willingness to give constructive help on issues of law, it might be OK to lay out some possible scenarios of assertions that could be discussed on the level of "finding of facts" as a judge would term it.

For example, what kind of definition of "property" would you consider worth defending under the fifth and fourteenth amendment? How would you approach a claim that federal government is immune from "adverse possession" claims to "property" so defined. I found an online resource from the BLM itself that makes available all the documents regarding land across the whole history of the US.

I sorta expect that PKM's issues are conflict of interest and abuse of power in specific actions taken in regard to Bundy's claim to the grazing use of land he believes, at a theoretical level to be sure, the Federal government just shouldn't be "owning".

As far as I can see, the Federal government had ongoing policies generally to dispose of land into private hands as soon as anyone could make good use of it on a continuing basis, until about 1902. Territories being admitted to Statehood routinely agreed to let the the Federal government manage the unclaimed lands and make out the deeds to claimants, but it was expected that this would happen. Over the next two decades, the policy was changed without explanation , announcement, or drama.

When this became apparent, the Utah legislature for one appealed to the Federal government for continued practice of the old policy, but it never happened.

But courts through that period were ruling that grazing rights were a valuable holding in the grazing use. My deeds to my ranch, and all the preceeding deeds, transferred a specified grazing right and were recorded in the recorders' offices as real property, and based on the value of the property so recorded, property tax has been paid all through over a hundred and twenty years.

For the federal government to say that grazing use is not a property interest in the land, though it is not outright ownership of the land, is not an actual property right is a change in language within the BLM office records in the last thirty years, or less.

Listed on those deeds is a well for watering cattle, and a water right, located within the grazing allotment.

As I see it, the federal government is on weak ground taking actual constitutionally-protected property from owners of that property, without just compensation. If Bundy's grazing allotment was curtailed arbitrarily or under false pretenses. . . to protect turtles, for example. . . or so the water could be appropriated for municipal use to a third party. . . . or so developers could come in and do something else with the land. .. it could be called "corrupt" as PKM seems to be viewing it.

 

[PearlWatson]

You saw the list he was referring to the same way I did. You were, however, asking for specific facts to back up the assertions. I don't think we need to try the case in this thread.

If PKM considers it appropriate, and you could assert your willingness to give constructive help on issues of law, it might be OK to lay out some possible scenarios of assertions that could be discussed on the level of "finding of facts" as a judge would term it.

For example, what kind of definition of "property" would you consider worth defending under the fifth and fourteenth amendment? How would you approach a claim that federal government is immune from "adverse possession" claims to "property" so defined. I found an online resource from the BLM itself that makes available all the documents regarding land across the whole history of the US.

I sorta expect that PKM's issues are conflict of interest and abuse of power in specific actions taken in regard to Bundy's claim to the grazing use of land he believes, at a theoretical level to be sure, the Federal government just shouldn't be "owning".

As far as I can see, the Federal government had ongoing policies generally to dispose of land into private hands as soon as anyone could make good use of it on a continuing basis, until about 1902. Territories being admitted to Statehood routinely agreed to let the the Federal government manage the unclaimed lands and make out the deeds to claimants, but it was expected that this would happen. Over the next two decades, the policy was changed without explanation , announcement, or drama.

When this became apparent, the Utah legislature for one appealed to the Federal government for continued practice of the old policy, but it never happened.

But courts through that period were ruling that grazing rights were a valuable holding in the grazing use. My deeds to my ranch, and all the preceeding deeds, transferred and were recorded in the recorders' offices as real property, and based on the value of the property so recorded, property tax has been paid all through over a hundred and twenty years.

For the federal government to say that grazing use is not a property interest in the land, though it is not outright ownership of the land, is not an actual property right is a change in language in within the BLM office records in the last thirty years, or less.

Listed on those deeds is a well for watering cattle, and a water right, located within the grazing allotment.

As I see it, the federal government is on weak ground taking actual constitutionally-protected property from owners of that property, without just compensation. If Bundy's grazing allotment was curtailed arbitrarily or under false pretenses. . . to protect turtles, for example. . . or so the water could be appropriated for municipal use to a third party. . . . or so developers could come in and do something else with the land. .. it could be called "corrupt" as PKM seems to be viewing it.

He claims to have you on his ignore list, so he won't read this...

 

[babe]

He claims to have you on his ignore list, so he won't read this...

sometimes he crawls out from under his little blue blanket and tries to insult me, though.

But yah, I think you're right.

Pretty cool thing for a Mod to do, huh.

I tried doing that for some on the old Tribtalk self-professed world-class outpost of civilization on the Utah Twilight Zone of culture and the premier authority on Anti-Mormonism, but realized it just made me look stupid if I didn't, or couldn't, deal with critics.

 

[PearlWatson]

sometimes he crawls out from under his little blue blanket and tries to insult me, though.

But yah, I think you're right.

Pretty cool thing for a Mod to do, huh.

I tried doing that for some on the old Tribtalk self-professed world-class outpost of civilization on the Utah Twilight Zone of culture and the premier authority on Anti-Mormonism, but realized it just made me look stupid if I didn't, or couldn't, deal with critics.

You mean stalkers in the case of tribtalk.

 

[babe]

You mean stalkers in the case of tribtalk.

Well, I might be an outlier on a lot of statistical distribution parameters, but I lack the common sense to discriminate. I might be susceptible to delusions of the sort where I don't mind stalkers as long as they are talkers. I mean, I appreciate attention from cows, for heavens' sake. If they moo, I take it serious and have learned what different moos actually mean.

Also, in my life experience, I owe a lot to my avowed enemies, who generally have been the ones who helped me out when I really needed it. . .. more so than "friends", who just figure I'll deal with it good enough on my own.

There's something to be said for folks who'll take you on and really try to set you straight. Some might consider them enemies, but sometimes I think they're your "best" friends.

The Three Stooges of Tribtalk, however, were evil. I told Janadelle not to actually post about her daily travels in real time on there because I truly feared for her safety.

.

 

[franklin]

I have a personal interest in grazing rights, and it would be financially favorable to me in a rather important way if my "grazing preference" were solidly in my hands, even to the extent that it meant I had to pay property tax on it.

I think government "management" of lands encumbered with a grazing property right is still good, provided only that it is uncorrupt and that nobody thinks I don't "own" the grazing use.

Utah, and other states, would benefit greatly if grazing, mineral, and other beneficial uses of land were taxable holdings, and I think it could be better managed locally than nationally. It is entirely true that the forage consumed by a cow in a month is worth $20 as a basic rental rate, and that a grazing right is worth about as much as five cows, that is $5000 per cow that can be fed on grazing allotment. Thus Bundy's grazing right is worth at least $5 M, and the government should pay him that much if say, a turtle or a solar plant is the higher and best use of it. The water right is additional. . . .

I could go on. Maybe it will take me twenty more years to do full disclosure.

Local land politics are the most easily and deeply corrupted cesspool there is, which is the reason I have no interest in your state's rights reasoning. It's admirable that you believe in small government deciding the destiny of the area around us, but take a look around and see how that's turned out. Brigham Young had a city plan that didn't allow building above 4000 feet in elevation, or something. Now we've built to the top of every foothill in sight.

When I was a teenager, we used to four wheel and shoot guns in the foothills of Utah County. We were always being herded off the land for fears of environmental destruction. Honest to Gordon, they used to land black helicopters up Hogs Hollow (above Alpine/Highland) and ticket the trucks not staying on established dirt roads. Now, look at that area that couldn't handle a little four wheeling. They paved a highway over it and sold off the land to developers who built McMansions on it. So much for the environment eh?

That's just one small story of thousands. Look at how the ranchers land grab of the ground underneath our rivers. That kind of b.s. is only the beginning if the state had control of this land. I want nothing to do with the local scoundrels controlling federal lands. In fact, I'd give them more back if it were up for vote.