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Douchebag K said:
Just the last few weeks it's been shown their anti-viral Covid drug doesn't outperform placebo. They're one of the most corrupt morally reprehensible companies around. You're ok with the fact it now admits it never tested whether the vaccine stopped transmission ??? And continue to keep hidden many of their finanacial details in regards to arrangements with various governments
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These are all legitimate points to consider. However, they don't answer the question of whether it is riskier to vaccinate as opposed to not vaccinate.
 
The Thriller said:
According to the CDC, aren’t the risks for young people to get vaccinated lower than the risks of getting sick?
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They seem to have made that determination, as has the EU. I see no harm is reasonable questioning of the basis for that determination.0

The Thriller said:
Let’s let data and not our emotions guide policy decisions.
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I agree. I would love to see some experts weigh in on the data.
 
One Brow said:
I really get tired of your apparent lumping everyone who disagrees with your positions into a single category. Most of @Douchebag K 's posts on the topic present reasonable objections and ask questions that should be answered. I wish I could answer more of them.
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I don’t believe these are reasonable objections. His objections seem to be the exact same he’s had for over a year no matter what the data says. I get tired of you giving bad faith posters unearned credibility. It’s certainly within your right to do that, as I have a right to not give them undue credibility.
 
Douchebag K said:
If you weren't so blinded by your narrative you'd easily understand there are massive problems with the conduct of the Pfizer company and the gulf between it's initial claims about their vaccine and the facts emerging about what it did or didn't test for or results released publicly, or actual results of their product. Just the last few weeks it's been shown their anti-viral Covid drug doesn't outperform placebo. They're one of the most corrupt morally reprehensible companies around. You're ok with the fact it now admits it never tested whether the vaccine stopped transmission ??? And continue to keep hidden many of their finanacial details in regards to arrangements with various governments Dangerous ? There are clearly known serious risks even though they are small in number let alone so many unknowns short, medium or long term due to lack of testing. And no i'm not in the "it's gonna kill everyone camp" so shove your "oooh antivaxxer" garbage up your fat ***. So intellectually lazy. It is clearly understood Covid represents little serious risk to young healthy children. Yet you refuse to address these facts. It's kindof bizarre people who pride themselves on being progressive and forward thinking can't assess risk / reward in this scenario and merely try to maintain some weird kind of moral stance on the issue.

not only are you wilfully ignorant you're being an intellectual coward who deliberately misrepresents what others say, and by your own admission don't really care about the facts more about justifying your own preconceived stance And then you refuse to consider anyone else's thoughts and just go for memes and insults. You're better than that. At least i thought you were. Maybe you're not
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Vaccines are not intended to only help the individual immunized. The term "herd-immunity" might be a tip on that.

Should I tell people with diabetes to stop taking insulin because of the greedy corrupt companies that produce them?

I think you're confusing lies with an incomplete and evolving understanding of a disease that has mutated multiple times, largely because we were not able to get it under control early on. I have no idea if actual maximum effective masking, better social distancing or shutdowns would have ever accomplished that but there was a large segment of our society intent on not letting us find out.

I haven't made an attempt to get into a full scale debate on all things COVID or COVID vaccine with you and I have no interest in doing so. Largely because I'm not an expert and neither are you. I'd rather simply receive information and recommendations from experts. That seems like the best use of my time and attention.

I don't pride myself on being progressive. I don't hold views because they are progressive. I'm not sure if I'm particularly forward thinking at all, most of the time I feel like I'm playing catch-up.

The risk of taking a COVID vaccine is almost non-existent as far as I can see. I know hundreds of people who have been vaccinated and I haven't heard of a single credible adverse effect as a result of being vaccinated. I do know that some people have had adverse reactions, but everything I've heard about that from sources that I consider credible is that the numbers represent a very very small portion of people who have been vaccinated.

I'm not a Pfizer fan boy. I think there are significant issues with drug companies, not to mention the absolutely idiotic insurance/medical care system in the U.S..
 
Al-O-Meter said:
The virus was made in a lab at least once.
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Duplicated, after the wild strain was available.

Al-O-Meter said:
The problem with the anti-First Amendment types intent on stopping the spread false information is that many of them claim a thing is false when in truth they have no idea if it is true or not.
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The problem is propagandists try to frame unevidenced possibilities as having equal epistemological claims with strongly evidenced theories.
 
Bucknutz said:
Covid Origins

There are two hypothesizes
1. Wuhan wet market / Natural - https://www.cnn.com/2022/07/26/health/wuhan-market-covid-19/index.html
2. Wuhan Lab / Man Made - https://nypost.com/2022/10/29/new-report-supports-claim-covid-19-came-from-wuhan-lab/

Even today, still the two hypothesizes exist and both are plausible. They still do not have a definitive origin. The DNI explained this. I added the DNI.gov declassified assessment of Covid origins to this post.
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Has this document been revised? Because most of the DNI elements seem to agree, with low confidence, in the natural origin story. There is a difference between "plausible" and "evidenced", and there is still no evidence supporting a lab leak hypothesis.


Bucknutz said:
Yet one of these Origins were considered conspiracy theories and misinformation:

Science | AAAS

www.science.org www.science.org

WHO media briefing from Wuhan on COVID-19 mission - 9 February 2021

WHO media briefing from Wuhan on COVID-19 mission, 9 February 2021
www.who.int www.who.int
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The DNI paper I quoted listed and discredited some actual conspiracy theories that were being pushed.

Bucknutz said:
One Brow -
Except, the virus is not manufactured and shows no signs of being manufactured.
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Still true.

Bucknutz said:
Than again, you think Mercola is credible.
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I hope this was never true, and I should not have been so unkind. I apologize.

Bucknutz said:
Both of you shot down the man mad hypothesis even though you both can not, even today prove where the origin was. No one can. Both of you were on the governments and media's side on this subject.

What I don't like is the government promoting their "truth"(Natural) and shutting down conversation what they feel is "misinformation" (Man Made) and working with social media to do this.
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The man-made hypothesis still flies in the face of the assessment of the most of the world's virologists, and still has no evidence. To claim it should have equal hold on our beliefs is untrue.

Bucknutz said:
Vaccine efficacy

I have posted on this topic before and included a video that shows the government, including the President, that claims you can not spreed Covid if you are vaccinated.
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I agree these were over-simplifications. Being vaccinated means you are much less likely to get inflected, get sick, and transmit the virus. It's true that the vaccine prevents most cases of covid19, but no protection is absolute, and ideally it would not been promoted as absolute.

Bucknutz said:
Even though you heard about the man made more frequently, what was the narrative? When you heard about it, was it "Covid origin made in lab is a conspiracy theory" or was it more "Covid origin made in lab is a plausible origin"?
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Various people were taking the lab leak hypothesis, promoting it as fact, and claiming there was a conspiracy to cover it up, kill people, sell vaccines, etc. Many conspiracy theories had the (unevidenced) man-made hypothesis at their center. The hypothesis may have been discredited too quickly on that basis.

Bucknutz said:
Im asking again, at the time, was it considered misinformation that if you got vaccinated you could still get covid. The answer was yes.
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Anyone who relied on more than a soundbite from POTUS would have been aware the protection was not 100%.
 
Lol at @Bucknutz

Can’t make this stupidity up. And this is why not everyone should be able to vote. This goes for dumb woke libs too. There needs to be some sort of test one has to take in order to vote. And be a parent for that matter.
 
Keefe said:
Lol at @Bucknutz

Can’t make this stupidity up. And this is why not everyone should be able to vote. This goes for dumb woke libs too. There needs to be some sort of test one has to take in order to vote. And be a parent for that matter.
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You’re an educator, educate me. If you feel Im stupid and I shouldn’t vote or be a parent because I’m showing there are 2 plausible origins. How about you teach to me, without a doubt where Covid origins came from.

Is this how you treat your students? Someone who does a research paper and your response is “your stupid”, while you don’t provide any factual data to show why they are wrong.

I feel bad for our youth if this is who teaches them.
 
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Keefe said:
Lol at @Bucknutz

Can’t make this stupidity up. And this is why not everyone should be able to vote. This goes for dumb woke libs too. There needs to be some sort of test one has to take in order to vote. And be a parent for that matter.
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Bucknutz is a good dude bro.


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Bucknutz said:
You’re an educator, educate me. If you feel Im stupid and I shouldn’t vote or be a parent because I’m showing there are 2 plausible origins. How about you teach to me, without a doubt where Covid origins came from.

Is this how you treat your students? Someone who does a research paper and your response is “your stupid”, while you don’t provide any factual data to show why they are wrong.

I feel bad for our youth if this is who teaches them.
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This is fair. I went back and re-read your post on the original sentiment on being able to get Covid if you were fully vaccinated and see I must’ve misread it. I’m a man and can apologize when I **** up. So I genuinely apologize.
 
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Keefe said:
Also, I have much respect for @fishonjazz. If he is negatively commenting on something I did, I know I ****ed up. Dude has great character. No hyperbole.
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Im a dick to bucknutz on occasion....... he never retaliates in kind. He deserves respect. Good on you for looking inward and manning up.
 
fishonjazz said:
Im a dick to bucknutz on occasion....... he never retaliates in kind. He deserves respect. Good on you for looking inward and manning up.
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100% agree. He engages honestly.

I get that this has become a mostly centrist space (anyone who wants to say this is some sort of liberal echo chamber, I invite you to make that case) and that right leaning ideas might be attacked and even labeled as far-right or even extremist perspectives. I'm also going to agree that American standard left leaning ideas are given a pass a lot of times where right leaning ideas are not.

Bucknutz has taken the high road and engaged honestly even when the same has not been offered in return.
 
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