The Caravan

[One Brow]

Chances are they’re all going to be to detained while they are vetted and then the left it’s gonna come out with their pitchforks saying trump is a Nazi for detaining them.

Please. Obama detain people as well. What he did not do, and no other President has done, is separate families for the crime of crossing the border. You really see no difference there?

 

[One Brow]

When they're told they can't enter, do you honestly think that they will just quietly walk away?

Are you saying we will break our own laws by denying people claiming asylum a chance to be heard? Are you saying the President is above the law?

Also your assumption is wrong. I'm definitely for slashing the federal budget.

Yeah, I had guessed that.

 

[DasJazz]

We all agree on the need to better secure the border, and to punish employers who choose to hire illegal immigrants. We are a generous and welcoming people here in the United States but those who enter the country illegally and those who employ them disrespect the rule of law and they are showing disregard for those following the law. We simply cannot allow people to pour into the United States undetected, undocumented, unchecked and circumventing the line of people who are waiting patiently, diligently and lawfully to become immigrants in this country.

 

[Deleted member 365]

We all know right? That Illegal immigration is down from the 1990s and early 2000s, right? I don’t think we should refer to it as “pouring” into our country. If waiting in line is such a priority for conservatives, why not focus on streamlining the process and making it easier to immigrate legally?

 

[Brsn]

Are you saying we will break our own laws by denying people claiming asylum a chance to be heard? Are you saying the President is above the law?



Yeah, I had guessed that.

You keep on assuming and throwing things around that I'm not saying. No President is above the rule of law. We don't have to take migrants into our country.

 

[Brsn]

We all know right? That Illegal immigration is down from the 1990s and early 2000s, right? I don’t think we should refer to it as “pouring” into our country. If waiting in line is such a priority for conservatives, why not focus on streamlining the process and making it easier to immigrate legally?

Wrong. "The Pew Research Center found a peak of 12.2 million in the population in 2007, decreases for 2008 and 2009, and then a “relative stability” since then." (https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/) Right now the caravan is over 7,000. No doubt that will increase a lot by the time it arrives. That's a lot of people, who I believe will try to illegally cross into our country.

Edit: Read that wrong. Border crossings have gone down since then. You are right.

 

[One Brow]

You keep on assuming and throwing things around that I'm not saying. No President is above the rule of law. We don't have to take migrants into our country.

I was asking a question because I did not see how to reconcile your positions.

Our laws say that when people show up at our border requesting asylum, we temporarily admit them in order to evaluate their claim. If POTUS denies them the chance to show they qualify for asylum, then POTUS breaks the law.

 

[DasJazz]

We all know right? That Illegal immigration is down from the 1990s and early 2000s, right? I don’t think we should refer to it as “pouring” into our country. If waiting in line is such a priority for conservatives, why not focus on streamlining the process and making it easier to immigrate legally?

Sorry chief, my post was a direct quote from Obama.

 

[Deleted member 365]

Wrong. "The Pew Research Center found a peak of 12.2 million in the population in 2007, decreases for 2008 and 2009, and then a “relative stability” since then." (https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/illegal-immigration-statistics/) Right now the caravan is over 7,000. No doubt that will increase a lot by the time it arrives. That's a lot of people, who I believe will try to illegally cross into our country.

Edit: Read that wrong. Border crossings have gone down since then. You are right.

Sorry chief, my post was a direct quote from Obama.

Which, if taken in the mid 2000s, would be a more accurate description since illegal immigration was at its highest back then.

Otherwise, it would be an inaccurate description and causes me to assume that you’re just trying to stir the pot.

Again, no one has been able to answer me this, if immigrating LEGALLY, truly is the issue that republicans have, why isn’t there any talk about streamlining that process? Instead, I hear calls for xenophobia like “******** countries” and “build the wall” and whining about “unknown middle easterners.”

 

[Stars Fan]

That's from Orwell's Notes on Nationalism, he was using nationalism in a broader context to include the Soviet Union and their international Comintern agents. It's actually one of the first articles that begins to articulate the shift from modernism to post-modernism. He identifies the importance of truth in forming a meta narrative and how various political agents left and right were entirely hostile to the concept of truth seeing it as a barrier to their propaganda machines. Orwell always relevant.

For me, one of the most disturbing aspects of our current political environment is the loss of agreement on what is truth. FOX and the right media present alternative facts as if they were equally valid, Republicans then orient themselves to that skewed world view and act like everyone should get in line with that view. When reality contradicts that worldview instead of reorienting themselves to a more accurate view of what is going on, they dig in deeper because they are so emotionally invested. Fox regularly uses ridicule and shaming to present propaganda to their viewers. They then act outraged when people react to the provocation with outrage. In the era of Trump no common understanding of right or wrong is safe. Deficits are bad? Nope, not if they fund the rich. Nationalism is a threat to democracy? Nope, not if the president says no. A free press a constitutional safeguard against tyranny? Nope, not if they don't agree with Trump. Then they are the enemy of the people. Alliances the bulwark of our national defense? Nope, not if they don't fit with the Trumpian view that Russia is our ally. Putin murdering rivals is abhorrent? Nope, not in the Trump worldview, because the CIA does the same thing. 1984, Animal Farm indeed.

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[Rubashov]

For me, one of the most disturbing aspects of our current political environment is the loss of agreement on what is truth. FOX and the right media present alternative facts as if they were equally valid, Republicans then orient themselves to that skewed world view and act like everyone should get in line with that view. When reality contradicts that worldview instead of reorienting themselves to a more accurate view of what is going on, they dig in deeper because they are so emotionally invested. Fox regularly uses ridicule and shaming to present propaganda to their viewers. They then act outraged when people react to the provocation with outrage. In the era of Trump no common understanding of right or wrong is safe. Deficits are bad? Nope, not if they fund the rich. Nationalism is a threat to democracy? Nope, not if the president says no. A free press a constitutional safeguard against tyranny? Nope, not if they don't agree with Trump. Then they are the enemy of the people. Alliances the bulwark of our national defense? Nope, not if they don't fit with the Trumpian view that Russia is our ally. Putin murdering rivals is abhorrent? Nope, not in the Trump worldview, because the CIA does the same thing. 1984, Animal Farm indeed.

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Half formed thoughts are all you'll get from me at 3 in the morning but...

i mostly blame Hollywood celebrities, video games, popular music and teenage mothers, however i will consider the following;

I think its a been a long post WWII decline but certain forces have allowed it to accelerate and become a genuine threat to democracy. The Cold War kind of imposed a discipline on democracies, they mostly had to play by the rules. For instance in today's climate would Nixon have really been any better than Trump? Without an organised militant left, not so much in the Soviet world but in the west and the concentration of media ownership throughout the world the truth is easier to hide. I also think the Americanisation of the global media and politics hasn't helped, the use of wedge issues and so on, is a deliberate ploy to remove rationality from the coverage of issues. Neo-liberalism has eroded public education in much of the developed world and the rise of consumerism i think made people less concerned about social wealth and instead focuses their interests on their own immediate material position. I should probably expand on and explain all of this but i'm about to go to bed, maybe in the morning if i can be stuffed.

 

[Stars Fan]

Half formed thoughts are all you'll get from me at 3 in the morning but...

i mostly blame Hollywood celebrities, video games, popular music and teenage mothers, however i will consider the following;

I think its a been a long post WWII decline but certain forces have allowed it to accelerate and become a genuine threat to democracy. The Cold War kind of imposed a discipline on democracies, they mostly had to play by the rules. For instance in today's climate would Nixon have really been any better than Trump? Without an organised militant left, not so much in the Soviet world but in the west and the concentration of media ownership throughout the world the truth is easier to hide. I also think the Americanisation of the global media and politics hasn't helped, the use of wedge issues and so on, is a deliberate ploy to remove rationality from the coverage of issues. Neo-liberalism has eroded public education in much of the developed world and the rise of consumerism i think made people less concerned about social wealth and instead focuses their interests on their own immediate material position. I should probably expand on and explain all of this but i'm about to go to bed, maybe in the morning if i can be stuffed.

Rube
Not sure what you are saying here.

I do think an obvious threat creates a sense of unity. Or, if not unity at least agreement to prioritize the collective good in the face of that threat. So the USSR kept us from getting too fractured. Although 1968 may beg to differ.

The slow decline from Post WWII is only to be expected. Let's face it the U.S. had the only industrial economy that had not been bomb damaged and we had that huge influx of labor coming home from the war. Boom times are the natural result. I believe the U.S. produce over 50% of goods produced in the world. That was never sustainable. People who want to return to 1950s America would have to pay the price of the 1940s to get there. American exceptionalism is taken as a God ordained fact by some. But, there is a leveling function in capitalism that rewards merit. We can't thump our chests and demand preeminence, we have to earn it. The erosion of trust in science, accepting the world as we find it rather than as we want it to be, and hiding from competition rather than embracing it will only accelerate the decline.

The Rand corporation wrote a report titled: Truth Decay
Found here:
https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR2314.html

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