How can Ukraine have a border with Donbas when Donbas is a part of Ukraine?
The *OFFICIAL* Russia Is About To Invade Ukraine Thread
- Thread starter Gameface
- Start date
NATO expansion is justification for Russia's invasion of Ukraine? Someone is going to have to explain that one to me (other than SteaknEggs or AIO because they are on ignore and I've made a firm commitment to not look at anything they post. Well, that and they don't explain themselves well in the first place).
SteakNEggs
Well-Known Member
I've been explaining stuff the entire time. I'll bet you a month ban that you can't specify a single issue where I don't explain myself. But continue to lie onebrow Jr. You accuse me if doing exactly what you did. I answered your long heartfelt post, you just got triggered by my answer because you lied about only a few kids having surgery. Me pointing out your lie is what p* you off.
So SteakNEggs and Mongoose, are you actually interested in a real discussion of this topic or is this just a partisan thing?
I'm asking because I don't think either of you know me, but I can pretty much guarantee you my knowledge base on Russia/Ukraine is a LOT larger than either of yours. I speak Russian. I've been to Russia (in 2019). I've been to Ukraine three times. I was in Ukraine last month. I've hosted Belorussians in my home in the US personally, and I know actual professors from Russia who have written extensively about US/Russian relations over the last thirty years. I've met with Ukrainian soldiers fighting in this war, and drank water from a rainbarrel that was converted from an NLAW canister. I've cradled in shelter in an Odessa mall while air raid sirens blared and Iranian drones flew overhead.
I don't rely on random newspaper articles, and I verify a lot of open source materials through Russian-language sources. This isn't hypothetical for me. I even wrote jokes about my learning Russian and about Russian culture on this board nearly six years ago so there's jazzfanz receipts. (https://jazzfanz.com/threads/the-Баба-яга.72634/)
I can tell you that virtually every sentence in your posts above relies on simple wrong assumptions or misstatements of fact about the region. Do you actually want to talk about it, or are you going to discount anything I have to say because it conflicts with the idea that Democrats are wrong about Ukraine/Russia? Serious question.
I'm asking because I don't think either of you know me, but I can pretty much guarantee you my knowledge base on Russia/Ukraine is a LOT larger than either of yours. I speak Russian. I've been to Russia (in 2019). I've been to Ukraine three times. I was in Ukraine last month. I've hosted Belorussians in my home in the US personally, and I know actual professors from Russia who have written extensively about US/Russian relations over the last thirty years. I've met with Ukrainian soldiers fighting in this war, and drank water from a rainbarrel that was converted from an NLAW canister. I've cradled in shelter in an Odessa mall while air raid sirens blared and Iranian drones flew overhead.
I don't rely on random newspaper articles, and I verify a lot of open source materials through Russian-language sources. This isn't hypothetical for me. I even wrote jokes about my learning Russian and about Russian culture on this board nearly six years ago so there's jazzfanz receipts. (https://jazzfanz.com/threads/the-Баба-яга.72634/)
I can tell you that virtually every sentence in your posts above relies on simple wrong assumptions or misstatements of fact about the region. Do you actually want to talk about it, or are you going to discount anything I have to say because it conflicts with the idea that Democrats are wrong about Ukraine/Russia? Serious question.
SteakNEggs
Well-Known Member
What makes you think I'm not besides others lying about me being a troll? I have given you nothing but respect. You are listening to the bully crowd that has offered nothing but insults while I've responded to you.
I asked you specifically what the endgame is here and you even admitted to my concern that Ukraine is a historically corrupt country. Russia started mobilizing days after Biden reallowed Putin to start with on Nord. Right?
Well one of your major points was about Ukraine "massing 60,000 troops along its border with Donbass" like it was proof they were aggressive. That's pretty much straight Russian propaganda because Donbass is a Ukrainian region. Even to say something like that is a pretty significant sign of ideological pre-commitment.
It's really like saying "The US was the aggressor because they massed 60,000 troops along its border with Applachia." It sounds ludicrous and unserious.
This sentence and link also make me doubt your seriousness.
First of all, you've said a lot of positive things about Trump, so it's a REAL eyebrow raiser to then quote an article from Jacobin magazine. That's way way way on the opposite end of the spectrum, and has some pretty obvious reasons they might not oppose the reformation of the USSR
Second "seven year old civil war" is a laugher because that makes it sound like there was some independent conflict that originated inside the LNR/DNR and it was Donbas partisans who tried to declare independence (on the same day Russian annexed Crimea by conincidence)
Third, "largely ethnic Russian Donbas region" is a real headscratcher. Would love to hear what makes someone an "ethnic Russian" living in Ukraine, outside of primary language spoken, given that all Russians claim to be the descendants of a medieval civilization based in Kyiv.
It's one of those sentences that like literally every word drips with "doesn't know anything about this."
First of all, you've said a lot of positive things about Trump, so it's a REAL eyebrow raiser to then quote an article from Jacobin magazine. That's way way way on the opposite end of the spectrum, and has some pretty obvious reasons they might not oppose the reformation of the USSR
Second "seven year old civil war" is a laugher because that makes it sound like there was some independent conflict that originated inside the LNR/DNR and it was Donbas partisans who tried to declare independence (on the same day Russian annexed Crimea by conincidence)
Third, "largely ethnic Russian Donbas region" is a real headscratcher. Would love to hear what makes someone an "ethnic Russian" living in Ukraine, outside of primary language spoken, given that all Russians claim to be the descendants of a medieval civilization based in Kyiv.
It's one of those sentences that like literally every word drips with "doesn't know anything about this."
SteakNEggs
Well-Known Member
Sure... I'm not sure where you're coming from though.
"Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) monitors, detailing explosions in the Donetsk and Luhansk regions on February 18 and February 19-20, clearly suggest the contrary. Those big red splotches on the map around Donetsk and Luhansk show an intense bombardment. Overall, there were over 1400 shell and mortar detonations on February 18, about 2,000 explosions over the next two days. From the two maps, it looks like about two-thirds to three-fourths were on the Russian side of the line. This level of activity marks a big change. In early February, the previous thirty-day average was around sixty explosions per day."
Is this data wrong? Looks to me that both sides wanted action.
Will Tensions in Ukraine Boil Over?
The Ukrainian escalations of the last week, together with Russia’s recognition of the Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics and its movement of forces into their territories, advance the conflict to a new level. Vladimir Putin’s decision to recognize the independence of the Donetsk (DPR) and...
nationalinterest.org
Last edited:
SteakNEggs
Well-Known Member
Yet aren't really offering the counter arguments you promised. The only positive thing I have said about Trump is that his presidency was one of the most peaceful in modern American history. This is fact. This isn't about Trump though. He threatened to bomb Moscow if they invaded and it wasn't him who reopened access to Nord in which Putin mobilized a few days later. Biden opened the door for this entire war.This sentence and link also make me doubt your seriousness.
First of all, you've said a lot of positive things about Trump, so it's a REAL eyebrow raiser to then quote an article from Jacobin magazine. That's way way way on the opposite end of the spectrum, and has some pretty obvious reasons they might not oppose the reformation of the USSR
Second "seven year old civil war" is a laugher because that makes it sound like there was some independent conflict that originated inside the LNR/DNR and it was Donbas partisans who tried to declare independence (on the same day Russian annexed Crimea by conincidence)
Third, "largely ethnic Russian Donbas region" is a real headscratcher. Would love to hear what makes someone an "ethnic Russian" living in Ukraine, outside of primary language spoken, given that all Russians claim to be the descendants of a medieval civilization based in Kyiv.
It's one of those sentences that like literally every word drips with "doesn't know anything about this."
Edit: and to be clear about my previous post, I'm just pointing out that Ukraine is far from perfect itself and neither of these countries are worth the threat of global annihalation. That's not me panicking and going into my bunker but it's no secret that the world is destabilizing. This war is making that worse, much worse, not better.
Last edited:
Mongoose
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to pretend I know everything about the region or what is going on, but I do know more than putin/russia bad - USA good. I don't have a political affiliation, but I have been pushed right on this board because the discussion is often only regarding Trump or from a partisan perspective and pushback on the current administration makes me a righty. I think the US system is broken and both sides are cooperate captured.
I left the discussion in the Biden Admin thread and didn't return because of the bullying. I must say because of that I am skeptical when someone says they are a Democrat and they know everything about what is going on. I did not engage in political conversation when Trump was president so I cannot say what the overall state of these discussions were, but I can say that currently it appears to me democrats seem far more propagandized then republicans do. Besides republicans are supposed to be the pro-war corporate captured party. I'm not interested in discussing trump and that is not why I came here. I thought I would find allies in democrats who were anti-war and pro-worker, but they don't exist here or maybe anywhere anymore.
I don't know why I come here- I just try to point out US corruption and propaganda, but it hasn't gotten very far.
Last edited:
SteakNEggs
Well-Known Member
This is what gets me. Democrats used to be anti-corporation and anti-war and that is why I personally voted against Bush and for Obama. Now they are starting to remind me of the Republican party back in the Bush days that were pro war and think it's our job to fight others wars. They also fight tooth and nail for huge corporations like Pfizer to protect them.
Mongoose
Well-Known Member
I don't know how you feel about trump, but I think this is how we ended up with trump to begin with. He was like a big middle finger to the republican party and the crap candidates that party kept putting forward. Democrats seem to still prescribe to the idea that they are still the lesser of two evils and yet the party is maybe where republicans were before Obama. I'm surprised that even after "force the vote" and what the party did to Bernie many still don't see it as a corporate captured propaganda machine. I'd ask how much evidence they need, but they seem to refuse to see any.