Trump and Putin in Helsinki

[Ron Mexico]

I'm pointing out that your statement is a straw-man, and frankly pathetic. Me saying "this worked in 55/55 countries" and you saying "WELL WE ARE A DIFFERENT NATION" is farcical, and a defeatist mentality that stymies reasonable discussion and debate. It's a right-wing tactic used constantly. I've never said that everything that works abroad will work in America, but it's stupid to halt the implementation of something purely out of that fear. What, let people die just because of the fear that something "might not work" in America? Pathetic.

I dont believe that is accurate. There isnt a single policy that has 100% the same in each country that works like that. No, I dont believe 1 goverment style or 1 system is the answer. Many different ideas work and can be successful. People are also different and have different governments already. US is fairly unique and has a unique constitution and people view things differently than other counties.

Yes some of those ideas would work great, some would not.

Its not a strawman argument. I am not creating a new argument that is easy to knock down. We are having the same discussion on the same topic. Just because something has success somewhere else does not mean it will work other places. I think it is a reason to look into it. But its not factual that it would 100% work because it worked elsewhere.

Look at businesses. There are many successful ideas that most businesses use. That does not mean it will be successful with my business or every business. Even if most have found success, that is not a reason to just do it blindly.

Any studies that show that free public education and tuition disproportionately benefit white men ahead of white women, WOC, or and POC. Any evidence whatsoever (you won't find it).



Most money on all colleges? Bernie only supports making tuition free for public colleges.



I've looked them up-- you're the one who hasn't.

I just posted one.

 

[Ron Mexico]

That's an analysis for students currently attending college, which does not factor in the barrier-removing aspect of free tuition.

Thats true, but most of the groups people are fighting for to get free college already have access to free college.

Like I said the bigger issue is getting people to use the programs we already have or expanding them. I see no benefit in giving people who can already afford college free college paid for with taxes that would burden people at the lower end.

 

[Ron Mexico]

you're familiar with google scholar, i need to get back to work--

Let's put your point to rest right now (and with this, i'm logging out of Jazzfanz for the day).

There are 23 female senators currently serving the United States.

There are 3 black senators. 10 have been elected in the entire history of the United States. *drops mic*

Its not an either or issue. One might be a larger factor but that does not mean the other is not an issue. That is creating a false dichotomy.

Sexism is an issue, so is racism.

Yes Clinton could have won and yes another women could be president in the US. Yes, other women have gotten to be presidents in other countries that are sexist.

That doesnt mean it isnt a factor. Those people have overcome it. Clinton could have overcome being a women, but it didnt help her it hurt her.

 

[One Brow]

you're familiar with google scholar, i need to get back to work--

No rush. I feel no need to work to support your claim. Come back when you can support that most scholars feel black people face more political discrimination than women.

 

[One Brow]

Thats true, but most of the groups people are fighting for to get free college already have access to free college.

I teach at a local community college. The students get some aid, but very few go for free. "Free" is even less frequent at four-year colleges.

 

[Ron Mexico]

I teach at a local community college. The students get some aid, but very few go for free. "Free" is even less frequent at four-year colleges.

My wife and I also are adjucts at local colleges/universities. Students don't apply for most programs and don't have good help to get them. They also don't seem to know about a lot of them.

Everyone gets $2500 a year for the first 4 years of school.

Kids need help finding the programs and getting them, especially minorites.

I think there is a good argument for expanding and simplifying these programs but I don't support making it free for everyone.

Kids also need to be better educated on smart choices and how to pay for school without going into large debt.

 

[One Brow]

My wife and I also are adjucts at local colleges/universities. Students don't apply for most programs and don't have good help to get them. They also don't seem to know about a lot of them.

Everyone gets $2500 a year for the first 4 years of school.

Kids need help finding the programs and getting them, especially minorites.

One of the nice things about community colleges is we cost less, and have greater resources for helping students find financial aid. Even so, $2500 wouldn't cover 3 3-hour classes, and many students wind up borrowing. It's a more pervasive problem than simply hunting grant programs down will fix.

 

[Ron Mexico]

One of the nice things about community colleges is we cost less, and have greater resources for helping students find financial aid. Even so, $2500 wouldn't cover 3 3-hour classes, and many students wind up borrowing. It's a more pervasive problem than simply hunting grant programs down will fix.

It all depends where you are at and which school for what that will cover. But no that doesnt cover everything for a year.

But that doesnt require anything. That is just what every student in the USA gets. There are other opportunities as well that everyone gets. But beyond that we do have plenty of other programs. There are also multiple universities that are free if you make less than a certain amount. For example Columbia, Duke, and Harvard among many are free tuition, room, and board if your family makes less than 60k. Pell grants can get you up to 6k a year. FAFAS is up to 4k. Then there are tons and tons of grants for minorities. Then there are even more scholarships. There are so many programs that people should know about and look into. It is overwhelming for a lot of kids and parents.

Again I would not be opposed to expanding, simplifying, or other options for helping low income families and minorities. But I dont support giving every student free college tuition to public schools. That gives rich people a larger boost. They are the ones that will take advantage of it the most and save the most money, while putting a burden on low income families and tax payers. Especially ones that dont end up going to college.

There are better solutions. I think we should pursue those.

I also think kids need to learn that college isnt a given. I came from a poor family and had to work very hard to get through all of my schooling while working full time. I had some advantages others dont have but I also generally appreciated it more than kids going to school on their parents dime (or governments.)

 

[Zombie]

Most Americans do not give a single **** about Russia. Campaign on health care, affordable housing, and better public education. This will do way ****ing more than Rachel Maddow preaching to her viewers about the optics of Russiagate

You know Maddow doesn't work for the DNC right? I'm sure she's sympathetic to progressive politics in general but it's not like she's out there stumping for politicians or anything. What she talks about on her show doesn't really have much bearing on the issues democrats are bringing to their constituents.

That said I do agree in general that those issues you mentioned are probably better issues to run on than Russia-gate or whatever we're calling it. However I do believe the American people by and large are not enamored with the way Trump represents us on the world stage and the whole Russia thing can be part of a broader discussion about that.

 

[Saint Cy of JFC]

America already tried running a campaign of "Red Scare" against Donald Trump, and we saw how that turned out. You cannot in good faith argue that more people in America care about Russia than healthcare

2018 midterms will truly expose to all of y'all where voters truly stand. Ppl like Joe Crowley are getting kicked to the curb, and there's more to follow.

I can't quantify it in any way, but a lot of people really care about the Russia stuff. Like all the people who watch MSNBC.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

Ill give 1 example. His most talked about and supported idea is free college education. That sounds really nice and well supported but the fact is if we did that in the US the group that would most benefit from it would be rich white males. The people who need it the least. College is free or close to free already for minorities and poor people. Plus the fact that most groups are not going to go to a high end rich school except rich white males. So you just give more to people who have the most. So its a nice idea but not doing what its supposed to or all that helpful.

It's nice to see someone else find out about this. It's a huge wealth transfer to the wealthy. Parsed student debt numbers show this clear as day: those with massive student debt largely come from rich white families. And we want to pay their debts? Let their parents.

 

[fishonjazz]

Wow, I never knew that rare144 was cuckoo until this thread.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

I don't know what you mean by "rich" here. The rich can afford to pay $50K-$100K/year for the Ivy League, and would continue to do so regardless of whether there was free public education. Meanwhile, paying for college by the poor and lower middle-class often means the assumptions of a large number of loans, and it does have a cost on them. Even borrowing for community colleges can be a burden.

@Ron Mexico

Harvard's system goes further than that
Your parents can make something like 150k and you only pay up to 10%. It takes a lot of income before anyone pays a substantial amount. The rich pay the vast majority for all who attend.

 

[One Brow]

It's nice to see someone else find out about this. It's a huge wealth transfer to the wealthy. Parsed student debt numbers show this clear as day: those with massive student debt largely come from rich white families. And we want to pay their debts? Let their parents.

Those debts are from private colleges, and would be little altered by free tuition at public universities.

 

[idestroyedthetoilet]

Those debts are from private colleges, and would be little altered by free tuition at public universities.

Interesting. First time I've heard that. I'm all for funding post-secondary, but like Ron I want it targeted toward the needy and underprivileged. Obama's bill, for example, was a no-brainer even if it didnt go far enough. 6 billion per year for 2 years of community college funding for everyone is nothing.

 

[babe]

nobody here has discussed the effect on tuition which follows from loan programs or outright government assistance....Our colleges have become inefficient bloated bureaucracies because of all these cash cows that bring students in.

It's a market, folks. Let price and demand find their own place.

The degrees have also become less significant with a lot of companies hiring from India or other places where there is an oversupply of degreed talent. Again let our market find its own balance. If we let those smart kids find jobs back home, our companies will simply build there..... research labs, production units, whatever.... but hey, this globalism idea has some merit.... well.... if we have actual free markets and not heavily subsidized cartel wars for national dominance....like what China does. The fact is, guvmints doing "Free Trade Agreements" are all liars, what they are doing is cutting themselves nice pieces of the pie, usually with lots of payola going out to the bigs who do the deals. It's really a lot of "Price-fixed Racketeering" done by guvmint hacks.

Probably Trump really hasn't busted up the racket yet.

All of you socialist dreamers talking about the poor just don't live on the street. You can afford your delusions. There is no way the poor are ever going to get a good deal unless you leave all this **** alone and get the hell outta the picture.

Your little cute ignorant snob who wants to make us "Marxist Utopia" as she fantasizes it all needs someone to pull the rug out from under her high-falutin' ideas about what to do with other peoples' money. She can do what she wants with her own money.

 

[babe]

This is so ****ing embarrassing. Especially since it is becoming so popular for people to buy into this line of thinking.

No such thing as reality to some people. There are the like 20% of us being lied to, the 5% who have figured out the lie and the 75% who would have to be in on all these lies. Makes sense.

Actually, people like you trying, over and over again..... , to make this point are just embarrassing. What is in it for you to believe this????

The definition of a "conspiracy" is some people.... not a lot of people.... not the entire community..... attempting to keep the public or others who will be interested or affected uninformed about something.... anything.

Fact is, conspiracies are a dime a dozen, everybody has some iron in the conspiracy fire, hardly anyone is really on the exactly the same page.

Fact is, conspiracies are generally run in the context of a situation where most people are using some of the same ideas or social context assumptions, and hell no... those 75% are not "in on it" or beneficiaries of it.

Nelson Rockefeller and the CFR pursuing world scale agendas openly advocated, even writing books about their goals, are not really conspiracies. The fact that they(the commonly interested elite set of advocates for these goals) just don't have a Press calling them out probably isn't a conspiracy either.

But some redneck yahoos sittin' on log stools next to old trucks set on blocks babbling about the globalist "conspiracies" is in fact the poor rubes tellin' the truth about how they've been cut outta the deal. Nobody is tellin' 'em, and they have no reasonable line of action to do much about it, so effectively, the concept is valid, for them. Let call it like they see it.

You're not the great intellect entitled to mock anyone.

 

[babe]

Here ya go:



My last post wasting my time with y'alls delusion

Look, this is ordinary show biz. Nobody does interviews for TV without some helpers in the background making it run "right".

Sure there are a lot of common values running in the background between media and some candidates, too. And if you step on people's toes they back away, however cozy things may be.

Anybody who wants to make a difference has to be willing to deal with people as they are.
There's a lot you can learn from the JFC community. Learn it, take it to the street, and benefit your values in the process.

 

[Red]

This is out of synch with the direction this thread took, but maybe as good a place as any to post this information. Maybe, in foreign policy, Trump has a grand strategy in mind after all. And maybe it involves helping to implement the Sino-Russian blueprint for a tripolar world order, leaving the European Union on the sidelines.

http://www.tomdispatch.com/post/176451/tomgram:_michael_klare,_trump's_grand_strategy/