What's new
By:
Filters

CHINA vs the NBA.

fishonjazz said:
Wasn't the revolutionary war all about our Independence from England. Maybe we should have just made signs and marched peacefully instead.
Same thing for the civil way. People who opposed slavery should have just peacefully protested.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using JazzFanz mobile app
Click to expand...
You try all those things first, but at some point the price of freedom is blood.
 
fishonjazz said:
I don't think it should be called free speech when there is a very very large consequence/punishment/penalty for the speech. I call that very expensive speech.
Like if Morey's punishment for his tweet (which wasn't even offensive in the first place) was that he gets executed by decapitation then you could still say he was able to exercise his free speech (he was still able to say what he said) and that he knew the consequences would be death so it's his own fault really.
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand what your point is here. Unless the government has punished Morey directly, his rights to free speech have not been violated. There will always be consequences for the things we say and express. When the government is restricting speech, that's the problem.
 
fishonjazz said:
Americans who wanted Independence from England should have just backed down after being warned repeatedly right?
Click to expand...

We're comparing the situation in Hong Kong to the Revolutionary War now? A study from 2016, performed in Hong Kong, revealed that only 17.4% of Hong Kong citizens supported independence AFTER 2047, when the current agreement ends. The large majority, 70%, want to continue the "One Country, Two Systems" agreement. 14% supported direct governance from China.

https://www.hongkongfp.com/2016/07/...ependence-2047-especially-youth-cuhk-survery/

This situation is nothing like the Revolutionary War. Are Americans supporting an independence war between Hong Kong and China, along with all of the death and carnage that would follow? When you look at it in this light, it's easy to understand why China doesn't want Western culture making the situation worse.

When Morey tweets "Fight for Freedom, Stand with Hong Kong", he's adding fuel to a fire that he doesn't completely understand.
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
Not sure I understand what your point is here. Unless the government has punished Morey directly, his rights to free speech have not been violated. There will always be consequences for the things we say and express. When the government is restricting speech, that's the problem.
Click to expand...

Except for free speech used to be a cultural expectation in the United States. This right here is complete bullcrap. Did people think that authoritarians wouldn't eventually lay hold of the "Cancel Culture" they so lovingly fashioned as a cudgel to beat those they disagreed with? No. We have a history of people being able to say controversial things and push the boundaries. Sometimes it is good, like the civil rights movement, sometimes it sucks, like the Eugenics crap, most of the time it means nothing, like Justin Bieber fandom.

What we have here is ANOTHER government punishing Americans for their speech. It is NOT remotely OK or understandable.
 
All this being said, the fact that Haywood's shoe contract is suspended made me guffaw just a little. Perhaps that was the point of the whole thing.

"Wait, who authorized those Christmas shoes!? Can this be stopped!?

Lower level staffer- "I've got a plan. Let me call my contact in the government."

But really. When the Hayward Christmas shoes come out, I plan on boycotting China by not buying them.
 
checkbookdoc said:
@AlaskanAssassin, I find your signature quote about individual rights to be in contrast to what seems to be your stance that the HK protesters should not be supported. Am I misunderstanding you?
Click to expand...

I have enormous respect for the people of Hong Kong that are protesting. I ABSOLUTELY support their right to protest. I hope a solution can be found that is acceptable to the people of Hong Kong that minimizes any more casualties.

I think it's laughable that Americans assume that our values (freedom of speech, religion, democracy) should be adopted by the entire world. I wish we would look in the mirror before assuming that we know what is best for everyone.

To me, the situation is much more nuanced than people realize, starting with the fact that HK was part of a unified China for for 2,000 years prior to being forcefully taken in battle by the British. Are we able to at least contemplate why furthering the division between China and Hong Kong might upset the people of mainland China and it's government? No one seems to want to look at the situation for a different perspective. I've been to China twice (LOVE IT), read as much as I can on the topic, talked to Chinese people in the US who were raised or recently lived in Hong Kong and Beijing (I work in a CPA firm that has lots of these folks) and I barely feel like I understand what is going on.

I posted earlier some data that indicated 70% of HK people were in favor of the One Country, Two Government system. I have a hard time believing that this has significantly changed due to the recent events. Maybe I'm wrong.
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
I think it's laughable that Americans assume that our values (freedom of speech, religion, democracy) should be adopted by the entire world. I wish we would look in the mirror before assuming that we know what is best for everyone.
Click to expand...

I agree with you. But I don't believe that's relevant in this situation. This isn't about exporting democracy to China -- it's about preservation of Hong Kong's way of life. The only culture that's being imposed here is by the Chinese government on Hong Kong.

To me, the situation is much more nuanced than people realize, starting with the fact that HK was part of a unified China for for 2,000 years prior to being forcefully taken in battle by the British. Are we able to at least contemplate why furthering the division between China and Hong Kong might upset the people of mainland China and it's government? No one seems to want to look at the situation for a different perspective. I've been to China twice (LOVE IT), read as much as I can on the topic, talked to Chinese people in the US who were raised or recently lived in Hong Kong and Beijing (I work in a CPA firm that has lots of these folks) and I barely feel like I understand what is going on.
Click to expand...

Again, all of these things happened long before any of the parties involved were ever born. Who does this affect more? Hong Kong changing their way of life, or China thinking that something belongs to them? Which one will impact individuals lives more on a day to day basis? Think about what you're saying. China not being able to lay claim to Hong Kong affects the average Chinese person how much? China laying claim to Hong Kong affects the average HKer how much? I can tell you that the answer to one of those questions is much larger than the other. If we were to take this template and apply it elsewhere, does the template hold up and make sense? Let's say slavery. Sure, you could find some upset descendants of white plantation owners who feel that it was unjust that their 'property' was taken from them, and emphasize some heavy nuance on how we don't understand how complicated things are and how descendants of plantation owners have some legitimate gripe. So? Perhaps that's too extreme. How about the revolutionary war? Lots of British thought the colonies were theirs. So? Should the US revert back to England, way after the fact, because they believe it was ultimately theirs, that started colonization, and that the rebellion was unjust? Does any of that history mean **** to people today?

Should Hong Kong lay down their way of life because nearly 200 years ago "this belonged to China for a really long time"? Ok. Some land was part of the Chinese empire. How about the people -- alive now -- who weren't way back when this happened? What about them?
 
Was just thinking the NBA was headed for a great season... completely open field... tons of exciting young stars and some established superstars... and then this is how they start off... all because of a damn tweet. Momentum is fragile sometimes.
 
If it neither tilts the playing field in favor of or against the Jazz, I really couldn't care less if the NBA has less revenue as a result of a beef with China. If through some unanticipated consequence the Jazz are affected adversely or positively vis-a-vis the rest of the league, then I suddenly care.
 
AlaskanAssassin said:
To me, the situation is much more nuanced than people realize, starting with the fact that HK was part of a unified China for for 2,000 years prior to being forcefully taken in battle by the British.
Click to expand...

You're starting with the most irrelevant "fact." What happened a 100, 150, or 2000 years ago is irrelevant to possible solutions to today's problems.
 
infection said:
I agree with you. But I don't believe that's relevant in this situation. This isn't about exporting democracy to China -- it's about preservation of Hong Kong's way of life. The only culture that's being imposed here is by the Chinese government on Hong Kong.



Again, all of these things happened long before any of the parties involved were ever born. Who does this affect more? Hong Kong changing their way of life, or China thinking that something belongs to them? Which one will impact individuals lives more on a day to day basis? Think about what you're saying. China not being able to lay claim to Hong Kong affects the average Chinese person how much? China laying claim to Hong Kong affects the average HKer how much? I can tell you that the answer to one of those questions is much larger than the other. If we were to take this template and apply it elsewhere, does the template hold up and make sense? Let's say slavery. Sure, you could find some upset descendants of white plantation owners who feel that it was unjust that their 'property' was taken from them, and emphasize some heavy nuance on how we don't understand how complicated things are and how descendants of plantation owners have some legitimate gripe. So? Perhaps that's too extreme. How about the revolutionary war? Lots of British thought the colonies were theirs. So? Should the US revert back to England, way after the fact, because they believe it was ultimately theirs, that started colonization, and that the rebellion was unjust? Does any of that history mean **** to people today?

Should Hong Kong lay down their way of life because nearly 200 years ago "this belonged to China for a really long time"? Ok. Some land was part of the Chinese empire. How about the people -- alive now -- who weren't way back when this happened? What about them?
Click to expand...
You know that not everyone in Hongkong are separatists right? Like everyday there is some anti-Trump rally going on somewhere, does it mean that we should let those who do not support the Trump administration start a revolutionary war on us or gain independence from the United States? The illusion over this whole situation in Hongkong is that even if there are one million people in China that wants something collectively as a group, it still won't make up to 1% of the entire Chinese population(more like 0.07%). There simply are way too many people in that coutry and it is impossible to keep everyone happy. That is why I agree with AlaskanAssasin's idea that different systems work better for different countries. Let's not automatically assume that US way is the right way to go for every country in this world. It has been proven time and time again that it isn't.
 
infection said:
I agree with you. But I don't believe that's relevant in this situation. This isn't about exporting democracy to China -- it's about preservation of Hong Kong's way of life. The only culture that's being imposed here is by the Chinese government on Hong Kong.
Click to expand...
What was the point of the "One Country, Two System" agreement? Again, I'll point out data that in 2016, 70% of people in Hong Kong approved of the "One Country, Two System" government. It sure feels like the tone of "HK Supporters" in the US want them to be independent from China. That's not even what they are asking for.

Rather than trying to understand what the protesters are asking for, or what the majority of HK citizens want, we immediately try to interject our values into a culture of people that we don't truly understand.
 
JimLes said:
You're starting with the most irrelevant "fact." What happened a 100, 150, or 2000 years ago is irrelevant to possible solutions to today's problems.
Click to expand...
Sadly, neither is Tiananmen Square. Most of people in China nowadays are pro-government. Period. They don't care about freedom of speech, they don't care about democracy. People in China were never taught these values. All they can see is the quality of lives improving dramatically over the past two decades. That is what they care the most about. Of course there are a good portion of them, like the richest of the rich, who would pursue something more. But they are not the majority. Not even close. There is no "crisis" or massive "refugees" trying to flee China right now, unlike when Tiananmen square happened.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Top