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Discussion in 'Utah Jazz' started by yamers, Oct 6, 2019.
Sorry, I didn't see the full line of discussion.
I agree with you. But I don't believe that's relevant in this situation. This isn't about exporting democracy to China -- it's about preservation of Hong Kong's way of life. The only culture that's being imposed here is by the Chinese government on Hong Kong.
Again, all of these things happened long before any of the parties involved were ever born. Who does this affect more? Hong Kong changing their way of life, or China thinking that something belongs to them? Which one will impact individuals lives more on a day to day basis? Think about what you're saying. China not being able to lay claim to Hong Kong affects the average Chinese person how much? China laying claim to Hong Kong affects the average HKer how much? I can tell you that the answer to one of those questions is much larger than the other. If we were to take this template and apply it elsewhere, does the template hold up and make sense? Let's say slavery. Sure, you could find some upset descendants of white plantation owners who feel that it was unjust that their 'property' was taken from them, and emphasize some heavy nuance on how we don't understand how complicated things are and how descendants of plantation owners have some legitimate gripe. So? Perhaps that's too extreme. How about the revolutionary war? Lots of British thought the colonies were theirs. So? Should the US revert back to England, way after the fact, because they believe it was ultimately theirs, that started colonization, and that the rebellion was unjust? Does any of that history mean **** to people today?
Should Hong Kong lay down their way of life because nearly 200 years ago "this belonged to China for a really long time"? Ok. Some land was part of the Chinese empire. How about the people -- alive now -- who weren't way back when this happened? What about them?
Was just thinking the NBA was headed for a great season... completely open field... tons of exciting young stars and some established superstars... and then this is how they start off... all because of a damn tweet. Momentum is fragile sometimes.
If it neither tilts the playing field in favor of or against the Jazz, I really couldn't care less if the NBA has less revenue as a result of a beef with China. If through some unanticipated consequence the Jazz are affected adversely or positively vis-a-vis the rest of the league, then I suddenly care.
You're starting with the most irrelevant "fact." What happened a 100, 150, or 2000 years ago is irrelevant to possible solutions to today's problems.
You know that not everyone in Hongkong are separatists right? Like everyday there is some anti-Trump rally going on somewhere, does it mean that we should let those who do not support the Trump administration start a revolutionary war on us or gain independence from the United States? The illusion over this whole situation in Hongkong is that even if there are one million people in China that wants something collectively as a group, it still won't make up to 1% of the entire Chinese population(more like 0.07%). There simply are way too many people in that coutry and it is impossible to keep everyone happy. That is why I agree with AlaskanAssasin's idea that different systems work better for different countries. Let's not automatically assume that US way is the right way to go for every country in this world. It has been proven time and time again that it isn't.
What was the point of the "One Country, Two System" agreement? Again, I'll point out data that in 2016, 70% of people in Hong Kong approved of the "One Country, Two System" government. It sure feels like the tone of "HK Supporters" in the US want them to be independent from China. That's not even what they are asking for.
Rather than trying to understand what the protesters are asking for, or what the majority of HK citizens want, we immediately try to interject our values into a culture of people that we don't truly understand.
Sadly, neither is Tiananmen Square. Most of people in China nowadays are pro-government. Period. They don't care about freedom of speech, they don't care about democracy. People in China were never taught these values. All they can see is the quality of lives improving dramatically over the past two decades. That is what they care the most about. Of course there are a good portion of them, like the richest of the rich, who would pursue something more. But they are not the majority. Not even close. There is no "crisis" or massive "refugees" trying to flee China right now, unlike when Tiananmen square happened.
People talk as if everyone in HongKong wants democracy, independence or both. That is not anywhere close to the truth. HongKong as a state is divided amongst themselves. With a good portion of the local citizens being pro Communists. Those just were never reported in the US news media. Even the protesters themselves are divided into the peaceful ones and violent rioters. But even if everyone in HongKong can come together to try to accomplish something as a group, it still won't make up to 1% of the entire Chinese population. Much less than those anti-Trump protesters.
So the rich and complex history of China is not relevant in understanding this situation and the perspectives of those involved (along with potential solutions)? It's certainly important to them, why shouldn't we understand it before imposing our values on them? Chinese people are very conscious of their history. Ask someone from China how they feel about Japan, despite those atrocities happening 80 years ago.
I will join the boycott #standwithframer
Also, this is great... I wish no harm on Hayward, but the fact that he went to Boston for notoriety and ends up with Anta and they suspend his contract is great. Meanwhile DM selling a buttload of his signature shoes with one of the big shoe companies.
This is spot on. Not everyone in the world wants a government similar to the United States. We need to stop treating other countries like we know what is best for them.
What good does free speech or democracy do if you dont have a job, medical care ,can't feed yourself or your family, are in fear of your own lives every day? That's why from what I understand, most NBA fans in China are willing to boycott the NBA in support of their government because they understand what they value the most.
Most of the protestors were alive when the more brutal country controlled them. They were there for the transition. The protesters are not asking for Independence. Have you looked at what they are asking for?
Funk China, except their cheap electronics and food, those can stay
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The core of one country two systems is that we want China to leave us the fk alone. They’re trying to interfere with us more and more, while trying to strong arm us into submission.
Anyone with half a brain would see that Hong Kong as an individual country would be unrealistic given how much of our food, water, resources in general comes from China.
But if they one country two systems policy is supposed to leave is under Chinese rule with a strong degree of autonomy, then give us autonomy and don’t use the Hong Kong government as a puppet (a extremely useless and stupid puppet). So in short, we generally just want to be left alone with a high degree of autonomy, which hopefully includes democratic elections for legislative council and chief executive.
Don’t know why this 1% of Chinese population is a point at all. I don’t consider myself as Chinese anymore anyhow. I’m from Hong Kong and that’s that. You’ll never hear me introduce myself or admit myself as Chinese anymore.
Very very very few people are pro communist in Hong Kong except the people that came from China. Pro government supporters are pro stability due to financial vested interests. If China economy dies, you can bet there will be a huge migration of the ‘pro communists’ that you speak of.
The violent protestors are generally all young and lower in the socioeconomic bracket because the wealth gap and affordability of housing in Hong Kong is so bad, which is where a lot of the grievances behind these protests come from. Democracy is but one of many things that is behind these protests. The city is controlled by the rich (coming from a family that is decently well off, so this doesn’t even apply to me), and they’re rich because of China so they are willing to bend over and get fked from behind by them. That’s another key reason the younger generation hates China.
Xinjiang concentration camps disagree
They’re also ridiculously narrow minded an unable to make educated judgements. A lot of other large countries are incredibly ignorant (USA is a big culprit here) because of ethnocentrism, but at least it’s by choice and not by censorship.