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Hayward getting extension???

I havent gone back and read this whole thread, but what's your position Kicky, do you think the kid is getting overpaid?
 
VINYLONE said:
I havent gone back and read this whole thread, but what's your position Kicky, do you think the kid is getting overpaid?
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I think I'm going to be unhappy with pretty much any number over $8-9 million averaged per year. He might outperform those numbers in time but I don't think he's earned a check that large yet and if we get into the $11-12 million range then that's something we could have gotten in restricted free agency anyway.
 
Sirkickyass said:
I think I'm going to be unhappy with pretty much any number over $8-9 million averaged per year. He might outperform those numbers in time but I don't think he's earned a check that large yet and if we get into the $11-12 million range then that's something we could have gotten in restricted free agency anyway.
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How about the 'everybody is happy' extension:

4 yr/ 44 mil frontloaded.

12.5
11.5
10.5
9.5

I'd like something like that, more money upfront when we don't need it, less money as we start to need to sign other guys, FA's, etc.
 
Sirkickyass said:
I think I'm going to be unhappy with pretty much any number over $8-9 million averaged per year. He might outperform those numbers in time but I don't think he's earned a check that large yet and if we get into the $11-12 million range then that's something we could have gotten in restricted free agency anyway.
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Hard to argue with this position.

I guess this is the front office thinking he's going to improve and if they don't buy him now, he will be bought later at a higher price.
 
Sirkickyass said:
I think I'm going to be unhappy with pretty much any number over $8-9 million averaged per year. He might outperform those numbers in time but I don't think he's earned a check that large yet and if we get into the $11-12 million range then that's something we could have gotten in restricted free agency anyway.
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Pretty much how I feel about all this extension talk as well. So at the end we agree on the main topic here:)
 
Archie Moses said:
LOL. Hard to argue with Kicky? Riiiggghhhhtttt... ;) Jokes on us, guys.
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Your preoccupation with Kicky is an amusing one, Archie. I mean, for someone that has so much disdain for another poster, I wondered why you just didn't put him on ignore. I just figured that feature was not available on this board. But I checked and it is. It seems as though you feed off of the drama that you create when you engage Kicky in these threads.

Anyway, I think Kicky's position is one that I agree with.
 
Sirkickyass said:
Testing this theory some. All the contracts currently paying $8 million or more. Obviously shooting from the hip some and reasonble people could disagree on some of these calls.

Bad Deals:

Luol Deng - He's even slightly more worth than his current contract's avg. His $14M this season are way less than $1M away from his overall value.
Monta Ellis - He's not the same pre motorcycling player, but he's found ways to change his game. For the money Dallas gave him and their specific needs to build around Dirk he's a steal. clearly
David Lee - One of the best low post players in the league. If the Bulls got him instead of Boozer, they'd be in a way better position. Both were available the same summer. Lee's earning less. Successful and efficientlow post scoring always makes progressing through playoffs way easier as it takes away creative coaching options.
Dwight Howard - He's gonna bounce back. I don't like his media handling. His self inflated ego is similar to DeMarcus Cousins. But on defense he's a beast and on offense his body does what he lacks in skill. Plus he's very good in pick and roll situations. Together with Harden that's gonna be killer.
Nic Batum - He exceeds his contract in stretches and he seems very bad in others. But since Portland's cap space isn't getting hurt they can be patient. They knew they could when they decided to match. And he's added something every year, so I'm confident this year he's at least getting very close to the $11M.
Rudy Gay - Looked phenomenal in the preseason. Eye surgery helped apparently. Working on his game probably too. I expect him to carry the Raptors to a 7th or 8th seed. His defense is underrated as well. He's still no optimal value probably, but he'll be more like $16M instead of $18M he's getting paid. Most people though feel he's a $13-$14M player. That's not true and if he actually reaches the playoff with this team Toronto won't care the extra $2M as they can sell out extra games.
Demar Derozan - Also look at the preseason games. His game has really developed further. He'll be right on value this year after being slightly below last year.

Fair Deals:

Deron Williams - Lol? Hahaha? LOL. Homer. K? Not getting the W against the totally injured Bulls with his supporting cast doesn't justify his contract number until he actually wins a playoff series.
Paul Pierce - $15M this year? I mean I won't take his overall contract into consideration since the Nets explicitly traded for him and his last year. But then again as long as the RUssian money fountains explode like Icelandish geysirs none gonna cares about payroll.
Josh Smith - Worst decision making in the NBA combined with good D isn't $13.5M annually. He destroys so many possessions. Wow. Dwight Coward got an inflated ego off the floor. Smith simply takes it on the floor shooting pull up 3s.
DeAndre Jordan - I can make gambles on a LOT of upside players. Lack of BBIQ isn't something I'd gamble on. That's something a player gotta prove me before I believe it.
Chris Bosh - Was barely worth his money in Toronto by not getting his team anywhere. Not gonna worth it now with a diminished role and still non existent D.
Tiago Splitter - Too limited for $9M annually. But the things he does good he does pretty good.

So it's a little more evenly distributed than I originally thought, but I think I probably was a little soft on some of these deals (Bynum, Bogut, etc). In any event, once you hit about $8 million a year it's really rough if you get one of the bad deals.
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Comments in the quote are my take on your take :D
 
mhindy said:
How about the 'everybody is happy' extension:

4 yr/ 44 mil frontloaded.

12.5
11.5
10.5
9.5

I'd like something like that, more money upfront when we don't need it, less money as we start to need to sign other guys, FA's, etc.
Click to expand...

I think that's the same total value we could get if this went into restricted free agency and Hayward had a good year but not a Paul George breakout year. We get the benefit of getting to structure it the way we want it but I don't know that the benefit of structuring outweighs the shot of going for a flat $32 and four years or $36 and four years. I sincerely doubt anyone would max Hayward, and if they did then I'm ok with letting him go at that price, especially given that sign and trade arrangements would still remain an option. I view the Curry deal (and yes I know it's injury-risk discounted, but Hayward has to give us the "I'm not stephen curry discount") as the absolute ceiling for the guy's value. Like my wildest most optimistic dream would be Hayward living up to that contract, and that's basically the contract you're proposing with a deflationary structure.

This all comes with the usual caveats that I, like basically everyone else, have been for deals that didn't work out and against deals that were absolute steals in the past. If anything I'm probably too risk-averse to young, unproven guys on big contracts but I do think I can read market incentives pretty well and if we're anywhere near those numbers in Hayward talks then we could probably do just as well or better through the RFA process.
 
VINYLONE said:
Your preoccupation with Kicky is an amusing one, Archie. I mean, for someone that has so much disdain for another poster, I wondered why you just didn't put him on ignore. I just figured that feature was not available on this board. But I checked and it is. It seems as though you feed off of the drama that you create when you engage Kicky in these threads.

Anyway, I think Kicky's position is one that I agree with.
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I think it's clear that Archie needs to have this relationship with someone, and if it wasn't me it would just be someone else. I'm fine with it. I sincerely hope he gets whatever he's looking for out of it.

BTP said:
Comments in the quote are my take on your take :D
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You and I obviously have some very different valuations of players, and that's fine.

Our positions on DeRozan and Gay are so far apart that I'm not certain we could ever agree on some of these.
 
GVC said:
RAPM, synergysports stats, the games I've watched, and the opinions expressed by Raptors fans online.
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To piggyback on GVC here, DeRozan truly is horrendous on defense. He's good when he's in the right spot as he has all the physical abilities to do what needs to be done, but he seems easily tricked and fooled into going the wrong direction or rotating into the wrong spot. That makes him appear superficially decent because he can contain his man in one-on-one situations but if you're ball-watching you're going to miss that baskets got scored because Derozan covered the wrong assignment.

Those things might change over time, but to date he seems much more interested in proving he's a good shooter than a good defender.

And BTW: it might not be as true as it used to be but I know GVC used to watch a lot of Raptors games. If he's still got that level of involvement he's definitely this board's expert on the Raptors.
 
VINYLONE said:
Your preoccupation with Kicky is an amusing one, Archie. I mean, for someone that has so much disdain for another poster, I wondered why you just didn't put him on ignore. I just figured that feature was not available on this board. But I checked and it is. It seems as though you feed off of the drama that you create when you engage Kicky in these threads.

Anyway, I think Kicky's position is one that I agree with.
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Although I may agree with his position, it hurts me to say it, guy.
 
Sirkickyass said:
I think it's clear that Archie needs to have this relationship with someone, and if it wasn't me it would just be someone else. I'm fine with it. I sincerely hope he gets whatever he's looking for out of it.



You and I obviously have some very different valuations of players, and that's fine.

Our positions on DeRozan and Gay are so far apart that I'm not certain we could ever agree on some of these.
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I will never have a relationship with you. Gross.
 
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